System 16B Conversion Help

    • System 16B Conversion Help

      Hi guys,

      I've done a bit of work converting games on the System 16B hardware and learned a lot along the way. A couple of people have asked for some help with conversions and @ekorz suggested it would be nice to have a thread here - so I wanted to provide all the information I can on the topic and others can add to it :D

      I also thought this information might come in handy should SOMEONE *nudge nudge* want to create a System 16 multi as there are differences between the boards that will need to be taken into account as any multi will need to be able to assume the role of any of the 4 ROM boards.

      General information:

      - 29 games - Ace Attacker, Alien Syndrome, Altered Beast, Aurail, Bay Route, Bullet, Cotton, Dunk Shot, Dynamite Dux, E-Swat, Excite League, Flash Point, Golden Axe, Heavyweight Champ, MVP, Passing Shot, Riot City, Ryu Kyu, SDI, Shinobi, Sonic Boom, Sukeban Jansi Ryuko, Super League, Tetris, Time Scanner, Toryumon, Tough Turf, Wonderboy III and Wrestle War

      - 4 different ROM board types - 171-5704, 171-5358, 171-5521, 171-5797, these will be referred to in the thread by the last 4 digits only (5704, 5358, 5521, 5797)

      - 171-5521 and 171-5704 ROM boards are almost identical, but support tile banking in the opposite sections to each other

      - 171-5521 and 171-5704 ROM boards use the same PAL (315-5298)

      - 171-5797 has 2 SMD customs on board in place of the PAL on the other ROM boards

      - 171-5358 supports 32K and 64K (27C256 and 27C512) EPROMs only

      - Encryption varies between games and ROM boards. Encryption methods included a custom FD1094 processor (68k processor with battery backed RAM), encrypted sound processors and encrypted 8751 MCU processors.

      - Jumpers are listed for the games in the MAME driver but the listing is incomplete. If you successfully convert a game that isn't listed on that ROM board, please share your success so the MAME driver can be updated.

      - The main program ROMs (A5 and A7) have to be non JEDEC 1mbit EPROMs (unless the game uses a 512kbit EPROM) - 27C1000 or 27C301 are the type you will require. The other ROMs are all JEDEC type

      Games supported by each ROM board:

      - 5704: Aurail, Bay Route, Cotton, Flash Point, MVP, Riot City, Tetris, Wonderboy III, Wrestle War
      - 5358: Ace Attacker, Alien Syndrome, Bullet, Dunk Shot, Excite League, Passing Shot, Shinobi, Sonic Boom, Super League, Time Scanner, Tetris, Tough Turf, Wonderboy III
      - 5521: Altered Beast, Dynamite Dux, Golden Axe, Heavyweight Champ, Ryu Kyu, Tetris
      - 5797: E-Swat, Golden Axe, MVP, Toryumon

      Some games work across multiple ROM boards - but you need to make sure you get the correct version for that board. The MAME driver can give you this information or if you post in the thread I am more than happy to help identify which version you require :)

      5704 conversion help:

      I have successfully burned ROM sets for these games on the 5704 board and can confirm they work correctly:
      Aurail, Bay Route, Tetris, Wonderboy III and Wrestle War (Wrestle War came on the board when I got it)

      I can confirm I have tried to burn Altered Beast to this board, and it does not work. I went to great lengths to try to get it working - and can confirm that at least for now, it is not possible. Altered Beast on the 5704 board uses an 8751 MCU for protection which has not been dumped and is currently listed by The Guru as undumpable. This means that while you can burn the correct set for the game and even have it running perfectly, none of the controls will work and the game will not coin up. You can burn the set designed for the 5521 ROM board and it will run, coin up and is playable on the 5704 board but with fairly substantial graphics glitches.

      I made a thread on another forum about this issue, and it comes down to the 5704 board only being able to run Altered Beast on 1mbit EPROMs, not 512kbit (due to the way the tile banking works across the 2 boards) - here is an excerpt from that thread:

      There are 3 versions of Altered Beast that run on 1mbit ROMs that could potentially be used. None of these have been decrypted for one reason or another

      317-0065 (FD1094) - Wanted by the MAME team, not found as of yet

      317-0066 (MC-8123B) - Dumped but not verified with a second dump or released by DWidel, possible errors towards the end of the data

      317-0078 (8751) - Listed as currently undumpable by The Guru

      I will copy the relevant parts of the thread across to here in case later on it becomes possible to perform the conversion or someone figures out how to make it work
      Namco Cyber Lead and Sega Astro City owner
      My VAPS Profile

      Post was edited 2 times, last by xodaraP ().

    • Reposted from KLOV:

      Please keep in mind this does not function correctly, but I want to keep the information available so people can attempt the conversion and hopefully get it to work on this board.

      To perform the Altered Beast conversion you will require:

      1x 171-5704 ROM board
      17x 27C512 EPROMs for object, sprite and sound data
      1x 27C256 EPROM for sound program data
      7x 27C1000 EPROM for main CPU, scrolling background and speech data

      There are 2 ROM sets you will need to download to get the correct EPROMs

      Altered Beast Set 5 (317-0069) - This has all the ROMs including the decrypted main CPU code required to run the game

      Altered Beast Set 8 (317-0078) - This has the sound program ROM at A10 and speech data ROMs at A11 and A12 that are missing from the set above. This set requires the 8751 CPU that the board I'm using does not have, so we use the above set which was designed for the FD1094 encrypted CPU.

      Install the EPROMs in their correct locations on the board (the MAME naming convention tells you the correct sockets to install everything so there shouldn't be any need for me to put that information here)

      Here is a picture of the fully populated board in case anyone wants it as a reference

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/sthx0pjdvx...2049.jpeg?dl=0

      You will then need to set the jumpers - I worked out by downloading several of the MAME sets that use this ROM board that Bay Route uses almost exactly the same size ROMs for all parts of the board. It does however use smaller sound ROMs than Altered Beast uses, where Aurail uses the same size sound ROMs but larger object ROMs.

      These were the jumpers I shorted on the Altered Beast board to get it to run:

      S2 - S3 - S5 - S7 - S9 - S11 - S13 - S15 - S17 (this may get adjusted after I do a test run with the board in a cabinet to confirm any issues, but these settings are safe and the board does boot with these jumpers shorted and there does not appear to be any issues)

      It's also worth mentioning if you want to set up free play as I did, set all Dip Switches on SW1 to the on position, and if you want Attract Mode sound, set Dip Switch 2 on SW2 to the On position

      This was some diagnosis I did to try and determine if the conversion could be fixed by changing the jumpers around. Sadly this didn't help, I tried every possible combination of jumpers and could not get the board to run correctly.

      Ok I've worked out where all the pins from the HC139 go to on the ROM board

      Pin 1 -> S15, S16
      Pin 2 -> S3, S4, S17, S18
      Pin 3 -> S3, S4, S17, S18
      Pin 4 -> S3, S4, S17, S18
      Pin 5 -> S3, S4, S17, S18
      Pin 6 -> S13
      Pin 7 -> ROM B13 Pin 22
      Pin 8 (Ground)
      Pin 9 -> ROM B12 Pin 22
      Pin 10 -> ROM A2 Pin 22
      Pin 11 -> ROM B10 Pin 22
      Pin 12 -> ROM B8 Pin 22
      Pin 13 -> ROM B7 and ROM B3 Pin 22
      Pin 14 -> ROM B2 and ROM B6 Pin 22
      Pin 15 -> All ROM Pin 16
      Pin 16 (Vcc)

      So far I know:

      Pins 6, 4 and 5 are the Enable lines
      Pins 1, 2 and 3 are my Select inputs
      Pins 15 through to 7 are my outputs
      Jumpers S4 and S18 are directly connected to the +5v rail or possibly ground? Pin 8 of the HC139 also seems to be connected here and that should be a ground pin, yet the Vcc line is connected up to the same rail.
      Jumper S16 is connected up to jumper S3 - unsure of why this would be the case

      And from looking at EPROM pinouts I know that Pin 22 (Pin 20 on a 27C512) is the enable line for the EPROM.

      I need to work out if the jumpers are attached to any other functions on the board I guess. I don't understand why 2 of the enable and 2 of the select inputs are connected to 4 different jumpers.

      Edit: Realized I was looking at an LS138 not a 139, 138 is a multiplexer which makes sense given the application.

      Edit again: Next step I think is to work out which jumper controls which enable lines and select lines for the outputs. ROM position B13 is unused so this can be disabled while all other positions are populated.

      I believe the problems are occurring due to bus contention at the 2 output pins where 2 ROMs are connected but I'm unsure as to whether this can be resolved.
      Namco Cyber Lead and Sega Astro City owner
      My VAPS Profile
    • More general information on conversions:

      - The ROM sizes on System 16B games are 256kbit to 2mbit - the file sizes in MAME determine which size EPROM you require:
      - 256kbit = 32kb
      - 512kbit = 64kb
      - 1mbit = 128kb
      - 2mbit = 256kb

      - Decrypted ROM sets can be found for almost all Sega games at jammarcade.net courtesy of @Porchy and others who are kind enough to host these files, decrypt new versions as they become available and test the ROMs to confirm they work.

      - System 16A games that do NOT run on System 16B hardware: Fantasy Zone, Alex Kidd and the Lost Stars, Action Fighter

      - SDI and Time Scanner require custom controls. SDI uses a trackball and Time Scanner is a pinball game.

      I will continue to try other conversions and share my findings as I go and update this thread - if you can help in any way, please do.
      Namco Cyber Lead and Sega Astro City owner
      My VAPS Profile

      Post was edited 2 times, last by xodaraP ().

    • They're in the MAME driver, almost all the games are the same on the 5704 board I assume you have, except Golden Axe because it uses larger ROM sizes, there are a couple of other differences but I forget where

      WB3 jumpers: S2, S3, S6, S7, S9, S11, S13, 15, 17

      ROM set is 317-0089 - the ROM file names on your computer will tell you the correct locations as well :)
      Namco Cyber Lead and Sega Astro City owner
      My VAPS Profile
    • xodaraP wrote:

      - The main program ROMs (A5 and A7) have to be non JEDEC 1mbit EPROMs (unless the game uses a 512kbit EPROM) - 27C1000 or 27C301 are the type you will require. The other ROMs are all JEDEC type
      Just finished up Altered Beast on rom board 171-5521. I used set 5 - for cpu 317-0069. Just wanted to pop in and say the sound roms a11 and a12 (which came from the main altbeast.zip which is set8) had to be burned as non-JEDEC. Some of the sfx/voices worked previously, but there was a really nasty buzz/alarm for others. So if anyone has some sound trouble, try non-JEDEC for those two.

      edit: seems like all 1mb roms should be burned as Non JEDEC for these conversions. Just converted Golden Axe world 317-0120 / set 3 to a 5704 board. A6/A8/A14/A15/A16 all took non JEDEC 27c1000's. Gonna try Aurail next to see about the B roms.
      have multi: cps2 cps3 ttx2 naomi st-v gnet f3
      want multi: cps1 mvs pgm 246/256 system16 system32 m92

      Post was edited 3 times, last by ekorz: finished another one ().

    • ekorz wrote:

      xodaraP wrote:

      - The main program ROMs (A5 and A7) have to be non JEDEC 1mbit EPROMs (unless the game uses a 512kbit EPROM) - 27C1000 or 27C301 are the type you will require. The other ROMs are all JEDEC type
      Just finished up Altered Beast on rom board 171-5521. I used set 5 - for cpu 317-0069. Just wanted to pop in and say the sound roms a11 and a12 (which came from the main altbeast.zip which is set8) had to be burned as non-JEDEC. Some of the sfx/voices worked previously, but there was a really nasty buzz/alarm for others. So if anyone has some sound trouble, try non-JEDEC for those two.
      edit: seems like all 1mb roms should be burned as Non JEDEC for these conversions. Just converted Golden Axe world 317-0120 / set 3 to a 5704 board. A6/A8/A14/A15/A16 all took non JEDEC 27c1000's. Gonna try Aurail next to see about the B roms.
      Not sure if it applies to all B boards, but I can confirm that the 171-5704 type board requires 27C1000 in non-JEDEC for all of the 32-pin A ROMs including the program, audio samples and tiles.
    • kuze wrote:

      ekorz wrote:

      @kuze nice, that is what it felt like. My rims for Aurail should arrive in the next week or two, and I can test the B roms that way - I think it uses like every single slot at 1mb
      The sprites (B) roms can be normal 27c010 (128KB), 27c020 (256KB) or 27c040 (256KB roms doubled) if you happen to have them handy.
      nice, that's what I'll try first then!
      have multi: cps2 cps3 ttx2 naomi st-v gnet f3
      want multi: cps1 mvs pgm 246/256 system16 system32 m92
    • Got Aurail put on a 171-5704 board tonight. A's were 27c1000 non jedec. B's were 27c1001 jedec. It booted up 90% fine, there is some considerable noise around some sprites.

      I will have to swap over the roms to another board to make sure, I'm thinking my rom board has issues or a chip isn't seated right... so many roms for this one.

      MAME called for a chip at a12 but the source didn't have one. Guessing that's a mistake, it would be sound and all the audio tests passed. As such, can anyone verify the jumpers for this set just in case that's wrong in MAME also?

      github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/m…mame/drivers/segas16b.cpp

      2/3/6/7/13/15/17
      have multi: cps2 cps3 ttx2 naomi st-v gnet f3
      want multi: cps1 mvs pgm 246/256 system16 system32 m92
    • New

      Finally got Aurail working on the 171-5704 ROM board. From my limited experimentation it seems like the Object ROMs can be either 27c1000 non-jedec or 27c1001 jedec-- not entirely sure why but they seem interchangeable without adjusting any jumpers. The Program ROMs (A5-A8) and the Scroll ROMs (A14-A16, B14-B16) and Speech (A11) really need to be 27c1000's, non JEDEC.

      Jumpers in MAME were not complete - 2, 3, 6, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17. No chip at A12
      have multi: cps2 cps3 ttx2 naomi st-v gnet f3
      want multi: cps1 mvs pgm 246/256 system16 system32 m92