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Pic Programmer for this NAOMI/Arcade Hobby

RealMFnG

RealMFnG

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Hello there Arcade Junkies!

A good pic programmer and eraser to get the job done for programming the NAOMI and other boards, how much is this going to set me back? Do you have recommendations for each?

I am trying to weigh the options of buying the chips I need vs. programming them myself. I have many cabs, so that is why I am even considering programming my own.

Thanks!
 
I have the newest version of the GQ-4X and I DO NOT recommend it.

I've found it does a good job reading chip, but it's unbelievably picky about what will write, it flat out refused to re-write any EEPROM I've given it. and it has about a 50% success rate writing to brand new chips. These are all chips that other burners had no problem writing to. (I'm running an external power supply, letting the chips bake for hours on a professional grade eraser, tried every speed setting and confirmed all the chip parameters multiple times to no avail) Also to do newer/larger chips like those for the NAOMI Bios requires an adapter, which is a pain.

I've been considering buying a TOP-3000 as it doesn't require an adapter and supposedly works a bit better but I have no personal experience with it.
 
I've got a GQ-4X and use it with an external PSU as I found it was unreliable burning chips on my laptop (probably not enough power on the USB port). it's OK but not great and the adapters are expensive, not tried programming any PIC's with it though.

I also picked up a boxed Dataman S4 really cheap - perfect for stuff from out of the ark but no use for modern stuff or PIC's.

TOP-2000 upwards should be ok for PAL's & PIC's.
 
I haven't done any arcade roms, but GQ-4X has taken everything I've thrown at it for pinball roms and PIC projects (including burning NAOMI security chips). All that with just the USB power, too. I haven't burned anything that needed an adapter. I've been happy with it. I used to use a cheapo serial port programmer for PICs, but like GQ-4X more.
 
winteriscoming said:
I haven't done any arcade roms, but GQ-4X has taken everything I've thrown at it for pinball roms and PIC projects (including burning NAOMI security chips). All that with just the USB power, too. I haven't burned anything that needed an adapter. I've been happy with it. I used to use a cheapo serial port programmer for PICs, but like GQ-4X more.
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Thanks man. I am doing my due diligence on this. I'll add this one to the list of programmers to assess.
 
My personal recommendation is the Top3000, as you won't need extra adapters for common EPROMs to work with it.

Also supports the latest release of Windows 64-bit.
 
I have spent hours on the subject in the last week. I was leaning on the Top3000. Then I ran into this interesting thread. Because of that, I decided to look for those $5 alternatives that are mentioned. Here is one. I know Darksoft says that I have to have one that supports flash. I also know I need an adapter for the NAOMI Dimm BIOS. Some more research and reading is required. Would be great if this can be pulled off with an $5 programmer.
 
acblunden2 said:
I have spent hours on the subject in the last week. I was leaning on the Top3000. Then I ran into this interesting thread. Because of that, I decided to look for those $5 alternatives that are mentioned. Here is one. I know Darksoft says that I have to have one that supports flash. I also know I need an adapter for the NAOMI Dimm BIOS. Some more research and reading is required. Would be great if this can be pulled off with an $5 programmer.
Click to expand...
got the k150 works like a charm

For eprom and so, I own an wellon vp596
 
Having found out the GQ-4X Won't do Gals/Pals I need something cheap that will....

Anyone know if the G540 is any good?
 
I used to have the QQ, but had to many issues with it. Very happy with the Wellon programmers. Used to have the VP-280, which does 'everything' - but switched to VP-490 when I needed to program the flash chips for 246/256. Never had an issue or programming failure with these, and it does PIC too..

For 'normal' arcade stuff, you probably want 42 pin so you can do Naomi bios and CPS2.
 
invzim said:
I used to have the QQ, but had to many issues with it. Very happy with the Wellon programmers. Used to have the VP-280, which does 'everything' - but switched to VP-490 when I needed to program the flash chips for 246/256. Never had an issue or programming failure with these, and it does PIC too..

For 'normal' arcade stuff, you probably want 42 pin so you can do Naomi bios and CPS2.
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Big price increase there between programmers. What are the 246/256 chips, if I may ask?

EDIT: I think I found what you mean. Google is my friend. Games on those systems don't interest me. Still doing my research on this. Fun stuff but hard to gather all the info.
 
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Went down a rathole a bit when I was looking at cheap $6 programmers. I didn't find any of those that were more than 40 pins. I think I am going with the Top-3000. Found a nice set with adapters on eBay. For my purposes, I will be programming the following right off the bat:

NAOMI Zero Key's
NAOMI Dimm Flash Bios
NAOMI Bios

Then there is the CPS2 stuff I haven't looked into yet. Right now, I have 3 NAOMI's (one is an NAOMI2). I think I want 2 more. I have 2 working CPS2 (Xmen vs SF, Marvel Superheroes) and one Phoenix'ed one on the way. Can't wait to get them all going.
 
My friend bought a TOP3000 specifically with the intention of burning Naomi stuff, and he is very happy with it.
 
just for 2 Naomi bios and pic, you better ask friends or people to program it. Don't spend money on something you won't use a lot.

My two cents
 
TylerDurden67 said:
just for 2 Naomi bios and pic, you better ask friends or people to program it. Don't spend money on something you won't use a lot.

My two cents
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I have 22 arcade cabinets Tyler. There will be a lot more than just two Naomi's. I know of no one in this area that is into this hobby and savvy with electronics. I am on a solo mission. Amazingly, I am in the heart of the Silicon Valley too, go figure.
 
I went through this topic and as for me it was drama. As you may see some people are happy about GQ-4X but I was sceptical about it, and as I see from my perspective, it was good choice to pickup something else. No GAL no PAL is issue, but I would be rather really sad while so expensive thing with even more expensive adaptors could not do basic tasks for me. At neo-geo forums I went through topic similar to this and basically everyone was happy about his own programmer. That is not helpful at all for newcomers. Programmer is quite expensive thing, so I focused on things which I need. So my thoughts was as below:

  1. It has to be relatively cheap - in case of bad choice I could buy supplementary one
  2. It has to have at least 46-pin socket
  3. My wish was to have external power - but I didn't found such one with those criteria.
  4. It has to be supported by manufacturer within day of purchase - and it seems to be still supported until now

I would not to overpay for something which could not satisfy me. I thought about trusty old TOP with 46 or 48 socket. I found it but price was not attractive, set was used and some parts was missing and worse of all it was not supported by manufacturer anymore. I would not purchase something which could be damaged without manufacturer support so I went further. I decided that I should not trust any opinions of others at all. It is quite expensive device, I would rather have complains (eventually) to me myself rather than to someone else. And my pickup is VS4800. It was relatively cheap, adapters are also relatively cheap. Probably the device will handle PICs or GALs.

Only one issue is power source. On the listing it has blue USB connector so maybe it can feed more power over USB 3.0. Such interface for me was a problem because I have quite old PCs and I do not see need of replacing them with something modern, so I bought two USB 3.0 external cards. One to netbook (with external cord for power) and other to PC with PCI-E. As you can see in this place I could spend a bit more money for unit with external power source but I didn't found nothing else under 100USD price tag. As far as I know 48 pin support in this unit is kind of cheat. As far as I know inside it some traces are multiplied and routed. Hope that this disadvantage will affect only programming speed and nothing else. Upper models as VS8000 has not such disadvantage but they are crazy expensive.

I heard that those who own GQ-4X are happy with supplementary programmer - G540, so if you have issues with your GQ-4X you may consider such purchase. But decision is yours, do not depend on my words, consider on your own, that's your money. All-in-all programmer pickup is really pain in ass and better to have such decision after you sooner than later. Why? Because they are always expensive, however with them you will be cable to repair more stuff and you will can buy for cheap more equipment with faults. It's cheaper to buy arcade PCB's broken and repair rather buy working ones.
 
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I use a gq-4x , mini pro tl866cs and an old dataman s4 and still I come across chips I cannot read/program.

I just can't justify spending a fortune on one that can do more devices, buying the adapters is expensive enough...

The tl866cs is good for the moneyv- at least I can program gals/pics with it. .
 
That's why I hunted for supported device. If some programmer is capable to fit some IC but does not have software feature to support that, then you always may ask manufacturer about software update of this kind. With extremely expensive programmers there is no issues at all. But in case of these Chinese cheap ones is not so bad, such manufacturer usually ask about a couple of chips of one kind from you and that's all. I think that they need to sacrifice them and do some sort of reverse engineering. Maybe this is not best way, maybe you have to wait more than you could expect but surely this is more comfortable situation than no support at all.

In my case one adapter cost about 3USD each. Not so bad. I will let you know here what I'm capable of with this programmer and what do not. But first I have to buy adapters and wait for USB 3.0 cards.
 
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KyRol said:
That's why I hunted for supported device. If some programmer is capable to fit some IC but does not have software feature to support that, then you always may ask manufacturer about software update of this kind. With extremely expensive programmers there is no issues at all. But in case of these Chinese cheap ones is not so bad, such manufacturer usually ask about a couple of chips of one kind from you and that's all. I think that they need to sacrifice them and do some sort of reverse engineering. Maybe this is not best way, maybe you have to wait more than you could expect but surely this is more comfortable situation than no support at all.

In my case one adapter cost about 3USD each. Not so bad. I will let you know here what I'm capable of with this programmer and what do not. But first I have to buy adapters and wait for USB 3.0 cards.
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After you burn some of your chips, let us know how the VS8000 fares. Might help others in the hobby. Maybe I should have researched as much as you did :)

I ended up with the Top3000. After almost a year with it, I can honestly say, I have got my money's worth out of it. But is is not without faults. I bought it originally for Naomi BIOS programming, but have been able to burn many things with it. Here is a list of what I was able to do:
  • ST-V Multi Bios
  • Naomi Zero Key Pic (compiled my own hex too! wipes rain drops from shoulders)
  • Naomi Bios (Multi region or otherwise)
  • Killer Instinct 1 & 2 boot & audio roms
  • CPS1 conversions
  • Taito F3 conversions
Here is what I haven't been able to burn:
  • Naomi 3.17 firmware w/TSOP48 adapter
  • Darksoft CPS3 SuperBios w/TSOP48 adapter
The biggest program with the Top3000 is its chip compatibility is low. In those instances where supported chips have an electrically identical chip made by another manufacturer, they won't always burn. It is sort of hit or miss. That is why I was not able to burn the TSOP48 flash chips listed above. I am sure I can get past that but sourcing compatible chips is harder than just buying them from Mitsurugi-w. But as far as clean burns go, I only had issues with the ST-V multi bios. Thankfully, a member was able to help me get past that

. Lastly, the software is clunky. You sort of have to get used to it and when you do, make sure you save your projects and name them appropriately. Because selecting/searching for your chip to burn is a pain. Would I buy this again? In my situation, YES. But I have 20 or so cabs to fix up. A normal collector, I would just advise buying the chips from a reputable person like Mitsurugi-w.
 
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