What's new
By:
Filters

Conversion of single layer Taito Cup Finals PCB to something else?

there are lots of ways to deal with power-planes,
one is to pre-heat the top with hot air and then desolder from the under side,

if you dont have hot air(you should as it's only €30) then desolder all the data pins with whatever method,
then heat each power pin and lift that end of the chip out.
then use stainless-steel needles to clear the holes out - or melt the solder from one side and use a pump on the other side.
 
I use a Hakko 808, it's a wonderful piece of tool!
I first desolder all pins except the ones connected to Vcc or ground. I found that if I slightly lean the gun in the direction opposite to the IC I'm working on, it cleans the holes neatly.
For the remaining pins I crank up the temperature. On some boards chips literally fall by themselves.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back to the conversion discussion...

I'm not sure if the full set of sounds works correctly on some games. Light Bringer seems to be missing some, which i think is to do with a slightly different address setup for the large sound roms.

What i know so far is:

There seems to be 4 banks for the sound roms as specified in mame. Only 2 banks seem to be used for most games (as i was mentioning before)

Locations seems to be:

1) 0x000000
2) 0x400000
3) 0x800000
4) 0xC00000

Most games tagged a V2 in mame seem to use banks 1 & 2. Like games Gun Lock and Elevator action and work fine. Light Bringer also uses this setup but i see a few (not many) sounds missing and it doesnt say 'Light Bringer' at the start with the logo either.

Now on Cup Finals mame says its tagged as V1 and the banks are:

1) 0x000000
2) 0x600000 (half empty)

So it looks like the hardware is defaulted for a 27c160 rom at bank 1 and a 27c800 rom at bank 2 only using the upper address part. This could possibly explain why some sounds are missing if only 1.5 banks are accessed instead of 2.

There are 2 pals at ic locations 16 & 17 near these roms, and i have worked out that IC17 pin 14 enables the first bank rom and IC17 pin 15 enables the second bank rom. There are also 2 versions of IC17 as far as i can tell. D49-21(used on cup finals) and D53-12 (used on gun lock/light bringer boards). The only difference between these files is the addition of input 6 for both equations but using D53-12 on the cup finals board results in no sound at all.

So my conclusion at the moment is the board must have another slight difference trace wise between the cup final single layer boards and the ray force/light bringer ones. This makes sense as i already had to do 2 other mods to it. I cant seem to work out if the addition of input 6 should be another line on this board.

This board is labelled as K1100743A J1100313A

Light Bringer single layer in mame is labelled as K1100746A J11--318A


Anyway, thats all i know right now and everything else seems to work perfectly. If you want to add any info to this then please do so. Again i've written this all down for the use of others and so i don't forget what the last 20 hours of experimentation was all about!!
 
I just finished swapping over the eprom, and graphics and gameplay work fine, though I get no sound... I did the address line mod already.
Before I spend too much time diagnosing, did you have to convert the jed file for the GAL22v10? I just looked a bit, and the documentation claimed the fusemap should be compatible, but I tried both a gal22v10 and an atf22v10 and get no sound...

Edit: Jp1 1-2 is closed for me - did you open that?
 
Last edited:
Fluffy said:
I just finished swapping over the eprom, and graphics and gameplay work fine, though I get no sound... I did the address line mod already.
Before I spend too much time diagnosing, did you have to convert the jed file for the GAL22v10? I just looked a bit, and the documentation claimed the fusemap should be compatible, but I tried both a gal22v10 and an atf22v10 and get no sound...

Edit: Jp1 1-2 is closed for me - did you open that?
Click to expand...
Yes the file available On jamma arcade is for a PALCE20V8 so I converted it to a gal22v10. The fuse maps are different so you have to convert it. If you want the file I made get in touch
 
Hey guys, i'd like to try on this one too, i would like to have an elevator action.
I'm a bit confused with these pals, i haven't understand if the D29-15 is modified or it came directly from the hatrick93 files on jammaarcade (i got few 20v8 to use for that)
Also the pal located at ic14, D66-09, where that came from? My board has D29-13 in that spot, it's the same game. Also, do you still need the wire patch/sound fix for it?
Thanks
 
TheDeath said:
Hey guys, i'd like to try on this one too, i would like to have an elevator action.
I'm a bit confused with these pals, i haven't understand if the D29-15 is modified or it came directly from the hatrick93 files on jammaarcade (i got few 20v8 to use for that)
Also the pal located at ic14, D66-09, where that came from? My board has D29-13 in that spot, it's the same game. Also, do you still need the wire patch/sound fix for it?
Thanks
Click to expand...
I would suggest rereading the thread its all in there. I spent ages writing it all down. In summary, I created a custom D29-15 so that larger game roms would work. Not all the game rom sets are the same size and elevator action is 4mb not 2mb like gunlock. 1mb and 2mb games work on the hardware as is.
 
mypinballs said:
TheDeath said:
Hey guys, i'd like to try on this one too, i would like to have an elevator action.
I'm a bit confused with these pals, i haven't understand if the D29-15 is modified or it came directly from the hatrick93 files on jammaarcade (i got few 20v8 to use for that)
Also the pal located at ic14, D66-09, where that came from? My board has D29-13 in that spot, it's the same game. Also, do you still need the wire patch/sound fix for it?
Thanks
Click to expand...
I would suggest rereading the thread its all in there. I spent ages writing it all down. In summary, I created a custom D29-15 so that larger game roms would work. Not all the game rom sets are the same size and elevator action is 4mb not 2mb like gunlock. 1mb and 2mb games work on the hardware as is.
Click to expand...
My bad, i actually partially found it about. Sorry, i first need to understand than translate to my leanguage haha.
I kind get that part but i'm not able to modify it, i don't even know where to start with it. come to think of it, i think i've even never opened a pal/gal file to see how it looks like in hex. So yes, its all there, but this customs is probably what many like me will give a stop on it.
 
While i was waiting to try the 4mb games i tryed to convert it to Gekirindan, a very solid shump.
Looks pretty cool on a single board, unfortunatly my PAL/GAL experience sucks, infact i don't have sound at all.
I did the A17patch on solder side but i'm not able to figure out the conversion from a pal20v8 to gal related (D66-09 gunlock jed). I tryed to use the Lattice paltogal.exe but this chip isn't even listed (there's option 23: Gal20V8 to Gal20V8, why!? Why this stuff tortures me like that)
I have no idea how to convert it... at least i'm good at sodlering/desoldering XD
Any tips?

20200613-083842.jpg
 
TheDeath said:
I did the A17patch on solder side but i'm not able to figure out the conversion from a pal20v8 to gal related (D66-09 gunlock jed). I tryed to use the Lattice paltogal.exe but this chip isn't even listed (there's option 23: Gal20V8 to Gal20V8, why!? Why this stuff tortures me like that)
Click to expand...
There is no conversion needed. GALs are backwards compatile with PALs in most cases. Forget about paltogal.exe or any other similar tools.

Just tell your programmer that you want to program a GAL20v8 and then open the jed file corresponding to the PAL that you have. It should open and write succesfully.

Let us know how it goes.
 
Darksoft said:
TheDeath said:
I did the A17patch on solder side but i'm not able to figure out the conversion from a pal20v8 to gal related (D66-09 gunlock jed). I tryed to use the Lattice paltogal.exe but this chip isn't even listed (there's option 23: Gal20V8 to Gal20V8, why!? Why this stuff tortures me like that)
Click to expand...
There is no conversion needed. GALs are backwards compatile with PALs in most cases. Forget about paltogal.exe or any other similar tools.
Just tell your programmer that you want to program a GAL20v8 and then open the jed file corresponding to the PAL that you have. It should open and write succesfully.

Let us know how it goes.
Click to expand...
Oh really? I was wondering why fluffy posted the same problem and mypinball told him must needed a conversion, see post 105. I have tryed that already and it did not work
 
That's because a gal22v10 is not the same as Gal20v8. If you want to use a gall22v10, you need conversion.

My advice, look in eBay for a gal20v8.
 
Darksoft said:
That's because a gal22v10 is not the same as Gal20v8. If you want to use a gall22v10, you need conversion.

My advice, look in eBay for a gal20v8.
Click to expand...
So i must suppose there must be something else.. because i did have that, 3 to be exact, but still sound won't came up at all.
I tryed the gunlock d66-09, i tryed the rayforce d66-09.. i check the patch was correct on solder side. Just nothing.
I even tryed to change ic 17 (d49-21) with the rayforce d53-12, and still nothing.
I swapped back with the original ic14 and sound, and it works, so at least i'm sure i didnt fuckd up something on the board.
I just don't know why is not working.
I used 2x 27c160 120ns for the sound, no errors on burning.
 
so you say that just replacing the gal with the original PAL will make you have sound back?

Then either your GAL is too slow or its faulty. You got another one to try?
 
Darksoft said:
so you say that just replacing the gal with the original PAL will make you have sound back?

Then either your GAL is too slow or its faulty. You got another one to try?
Click to expand...
saldy it doesn't, at least not anymore :(
I changed back the whole sound compartment and still nothing.. i think my swapping around did something bad with this board..damn..
Ill try to figure out another day.. its too much time consuming. Thanks for your help darksoft
 
I had some shorts between the ~WR lines of the ROMs, which were a pain to track down and fix. Since then I didn't have time to set up my supergun.

I got as far as extracting the equations with the newest jedutil from the MAME source distribution, and to convert them to WinCUPL PLD. They look a bit messy, so I have no idea if they work. When I have the time to finish up some other projects and clean my desk I can have another look.

Easiest is probably to ask mypinball for a chip as I'm mostly interested in finding out how they work, and if you can make a general/configurable GAL.
 
Last edited:
The patched 4M d29-15 from mypinball arrived today, i will try it out soon with my second final cup to convert it to Elevator Action, another game i'd like to have.

My gekirindan conversion suddently worked out meanwhile i was waiting for the newer gal20V8, a faster one (15) compared to the older one i've used before (25).
Basically the sound works for a good 2-3 minutes and then it complitely dies out, literally pulling the plug with it.
I have tryed with the faster gal and i'm having the same exact issue. On cold boot no problem, but if i try again and reset it the board gets worst and worst until i let it cool down a bit and doing again in cicle.
I don't have any idea about it. My JP1 pin 1 5V is bridged to pin 2 (5v again) and then pin 3 from eprom pin 31. I did the mod for the pin30 to the cpu correctly.
I also tried to cut the bridge from pin 1 to pin 2 but that didn' changed a thing.
The gal is Gunlock 66-09 (tryed also rayforce but its' the same exact)
What should i check?
 
mypinballs said:
D29-14 file attached in GAL22V10 form

Tested the file on a new chip in my board and works fine
Click to expand...
I finally got around to trying the Gunlock / Ray force conversion today, everything worked fine apart from the sound. I made the mistake of thinking the above file was IC14 converted to 22v10. After downloading the IC14 jed from jammarcade and sticking it on a gal20v8 (not palce20v8) it works 100%. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top