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I picked up a bunch of control panels today for VO, and am wondering what I need to use these with the Naomi.

Also if anyone has the spacing/dimensions of the Sega candy VO control panel I'd be super thankful as I'm probably going to drill out a Taito blank panel to use the sticks with.
 
Subscribing as I'm curious about this too.
 
here you go- I asked francoB to make the virtual on based off some photos of the sega candy panels- i've since found the template is a WEEEEEE bit off, but its not enough to feel wrong or anything:

http://forum.arcadeotaku.com/viewtopic.php?t=18444

I'll see about revising it and having him update it once i get proper measurements.
 
I picked up a bunch of control panels today for VO, and am wondering what I need to use these with the Naomi.
nothing special... they're all digital controls. VOOT 5.66 does use outputs for the start button lamps (or the billboard if you enable it) so the Capcom I/O may be problematic, but the Type 1/Type 2 and Sega JVS to JAMMA all work fine.

Left stick and buttons are mapped to player 1 joystick and buttons 1/2, right stick and buttons are mapped to player 2 joystick and buttons 1/2.

What sticks are you using?

Assuming you're using the sticks from the VOOT/Force arcade machines (some of this applies to Saturn/PC/Dreamcast sticks as well) I highly recommend disassembling and re-greasing the ball joint and spring hat (I use Dow Corning Molykote 44 Medium for all my sticks) as well as the trigger.

The #1 failure point on these sticks is the grip cracking/falling apart around the screw holes, There are actually a few revisions of the sticks used in the arcades, the earlier ones have a round shaft with a smooth hole and the grips have a semi-circle cut out around the shaft and are held in place with 1 bolt per hole and a nut that is slotted into the grip on the other side.

later they added square sections to the shaft around the bolt holes, and the final revision the shaft is square the whole length under the grip. Ton these the grips have a square cut out around the shaft and the shaft has threaded holes with philips screws designed to thread in from either side (so 2 screws per hole)

The later revisions hole up WAY better but are still prone to cracking. Check this out and if you can reinforce the plastic around the screw holes/fix any cracks with epoxy and plastic filler (like Q-bond).

The only reason any of these sticks survived is because Japanese players are respectful, nearly every VOOT cab I've seen imported to the USA had OMG sticks retrofitted to it because American players likely destroyed these fragile-ass grips within a month.

I believe the grips on the Dreamcast/Saturn sticks are the same as the early revision arcade machine sticks, or at least similar enough that you can make them work if your grips are too far gone to bolt up to the shaft. (I've never investigated this personally so I can't say for sure). Keep in mind that the colors don't match. Saturn/PC grips are black and Dreamcast grips are light gray, while the arcade machine sticks are dark gray.

Chances are if you got these sticks from Outtrigger or VOOT Candy Panels, or a 5.2 Twin unit then you have the early revision sticks... later revision sticks came from VOOT 5.66 twin units, VO Force, and Gundam Battle Operating Simulator machines. I have found later revision sticks on Outtrigger and VOOT candy panels though so I'd assume these were replaced by the operator at some point when the original broke.

#2 failure point on early revision sticks is the button arm on the back of the trigger, it's thin plastic and it flexes every time you pull the trigger, they eventually snap after enough use. Later revisions got rid of the arm and just has a microswitch behind the trigger, these work well. if you have an early revision you can hack this setup in place by snapping off the arm and just hot-gluing a microswitch where it needs to be, you might have to cut away some of the plastic around where you're mounting the switch... I'd recommend NOT doing this until your trigger arm breaks though since it will just snap itself naturally anyway, no reason to hack up your stick if you don't need to.

#3 failure point is the spring hat. This isn't a problem on the arcade machine sticks as long as it's well greased. but if not then the spring will start eating away at the corner of the hat and eventually crack and break off. This is actually the #1 problem on the Saturn/PC/Dreamcast stick. the Arcade machine sticks have a really beefy nylon spring hat, but the home sticks have a thin ABS spring hat, it's bad enough that there was a company in japan that used to make upgraded replacements. They even still pop up on YAJ every once in a while. I've seen a few hacked solutions for replacements over on oratan.com but I can't comment on how good any of them are.

------------

If you're using OMG Twin unit sticks... firstly these wont fit in a candy cab panel (which is why the kit/Versus City version of OMG in Japan used different sticks), but just make sure everything is well greased, and I recommend using loctite on the screws for the ball-plate as they have a tendency to back out... these things are built like a tank though... seriously well constructed.

Sanwa 8-way flight sticks seem well built, I don't have any first hand experience. these are also used in the Hori Twin Sticks for Xbox 360 and PS3. the off-the-shelf arcade variant has a really shitty grip design that looks nothing like the official sticks. the Hori units use official Sega grips but the bolt hole spacing and shaft dimensions are incompatible with the official arcade machine sticks... also the hori grips are black while the arcade machine grips are dark gray.

The only other 8-way flight sticks I know of are the really REALLY ugly sticks used on the OMG/Versus City kit in Japan. (I have no experience with these but I've heard they're shit) and the generic no-name sticks that look like a really chunky bat top fight-stick with a trigger. Again no experience with these.
 
That is a lot of information.

I'm running the older Taito JVS "upgrade" PCB for AWSD/Egret 3's.

I have two sets of the ones that won't fit in a candy cab panel with the huge base underneath the panel, and one set of the ones that certainly look like they will fit and have a much shallower base. I picked up 2 populated US CP's and a JP non-candy CP. 5/6 stick grips are present and in good shape, one is outright missing, unfortunately it's one of the shorter ones... Don't know if any of them work, so I guess I'd best get to wiring up something.

I'll also go around and grease them all up as you've described before I even plug them in.

I think maybe pictures will speak better than words as far as figuring out what I have.

http://m.imgur.com/a/zzrRB
 
The panel in the first two pics is from the player 2 side of a Japanese VOOT 5.2 (Model 3) Twin unit. These are the "early revision" sticks I was talking about with the rounded shaft (or at least the left one is, you'd need to remove the grip from the right one to see what's inside.

The fact that this is an early revision is probably why the grip is missing. :-/

you can test the one grip you have by lightly twisting it back and forth like you're trying to spin the grip. you should have ZERO twisting movement. if you can twist it back and forth then the grip is likely falling apart already. Best case scenario is that the screws are lose, worst case, the plastic around the bolt holes is already braking up.

I can also tell you that the start button on this panel is wrong, it should be an illuminated 24mm with a yellow plunger and a black housing. the Company Sega used for it's illuminated start buttons is GARBAGE which is probably why that was replaced. Though I've yet to find an alternative that looks the same and lights up.

The other two panels are from an USA OMG Twin unit one and two player sides... those sticks are built like tanks (they're made by Happ, back when Happ was still good). but yeah, no way those will fit in a candy panel unfortunately. At least the yellow/white start buttons are correct on this panel, though it's only a matter of time before they fail on you (those Sega start buttons really are colossal pieces of junk).

The "best" sticks in terms of playability are like the the ones on that first panel from the Japanese Twin Unit. They're a lot "lighter" and they have a much shorter throw and the grips are really comfortable.

Obviously, for reliability the OMG Twin unit sticks are the best because they're way overbuilt, but they can be a bit clunky and it's a bit more difficult to pull off more complex maneuvers.

I don't know how much you paid for these but the OMG Twin panels are generally worth about $50 per complete panel with both sticks.

VOOT 5.2 Twin panels sell on YAJ for between $180-$280 for a complete panel,

for reference VOOT 5.2 twin panels alone seem to go for $50-$80
VOOT sticks $100-$150 per stick.

Complete Candy Panels on YAJ were fetching in the $350-$450 range...

These are all before shipping to the USA. It's clear a lot of JP players just want the sticks and not many are interested in the Twin unit panels.

Prices for this stuff has sky rocketed over the last couple of years in Japan. It's hard to get a gage on USA value of the VOOT/Force stuff since it's so infrequent that you even see them go up for sale here.
 
The panel in the first two pics is from the player 2 side of a Japanese VOOT 5.2 (Model 3) Twin unit. These are the "early revision" sticks I was talking about with the rounded shaft (or at least the left one is, you'd need to remove the grip from the right one to see what's inside.

The fact that this is an early revision is probably why the grip is missing. :-/

you can test the one grip you have by lightly twisting it back and forth like you're trying to spin the grip. you should have ZERO twisting movement. if you can twist it back and forth then the grip is likely falling apart already. Best case scenario is that the screws are lose, worst case, the plastic around the bolt holes is already braking up.

I can also tell you that the start button on this panel is wrong, it should be an illuminated 24mm with a yellow plunger and a black housing. the Company Sega used for it's illuminated start buttons is GARBAGE which is probably why that was replaced. Though I've yet to find an alternative that looks the same and lights up.

The other two panels are from an USA OMG Twin unit one and two player sides... those sticks are built like tanks (they're made by Happ, back when Happ was still good). but yeah, no way those will fit in a candy panel unfortunately. At least the yellow/white start buttons are correct on this panel, though it's only a matter of time before they fail on you (those Sega start buttons really are colossal pieces of junk).

The "best" sticks in terms of playability are like the the ones on that first panel from the Japanese Twin Unit. They're a lot "lighter" and they have a much shorter throw and the grips are really comfortable.

Obviously, for reliability the OMG Twin unit sticks are the best because they're way overbuilt, but they can be a bit clunky and it's a bit more difficult to pull off more complex maneuvers.

I don't know how much you paid for these but the OMG Twin panels are generally worth about $50 per complete panel with both sticks.

VOOT 5.2 Twin panels sell on YAJ for between $180-$280 for a complete panel,

for reference VOOT 5.2 twin panels alone seem to go for $50-$80
VOOT sticks $100-$150 per stick.

Complete Candy Panels on YAJ were fetching in the $350-$450 range...

These are all before shipping to the USA. It's clear a lot of JP players just want the sticks and not many are interested in the Twin unit panels.

Prices for this stuff has sky rocketed over the last couple of years in Japan. It's hard to get a gage on USA value of the VOOT/Force stuff since it's so infrequent that you even see them go up for sale here.
Even more good information. Sad to hear that the ones I'd be most likely to use are the lame ones T_T. The existing stick 5.2 spins unfortunately.

I didn't overpay at least, thankfully. I'll likely start looking out for grips for the 5.2's, hold onto those two sticks and get a Taito panel made up. Probably just sell the rest along. Quick forum search on KLOV put the complete US panels around 80 and shipping in the past year or so or 60 for the sticks (per pair). Not sure what market I'll find for the Twin panel, but I'm not too worried about it. I bought the lot to get the 5.2 sticks, so mission accomplished (sort of). Now I just need to find grips.
 
I don't know if your panel came with it but you'll also need the button PCB for the trigger and thumb button in addition to the grip itself. You can, of course, check out the right grip to see what you're missing on the left. The few times I've seen grips for sale alone they did indeed come with the button pcb. I've also seen the button PCBs sold alone.

Fair warning though the last NOS grip I saw on YAJ sold for around $55... which is kind of ridiculous.

I've HEARD that you can retrofit the Saturn/PC/Dreamcast grips for the early revision shafts... externally they should be the same exact shape. the biggest question is if mounting holes and shaft cutout are compatible.
 
I don't know if your panel came with it but you'll also need the button PCB for the trigger and thumb button in addition to the grip itself. You can, of course, check out the right grip to see what you're missing on the left. The few times I've seen grips for sale alone they did indeed come with the button pcb. I've also seen the button PCBs sold alone.

Fair warning though the last NOS grip I saw on YAJ sold for around $55... which is kind of ridiculous.

I've HEARD that you can retrofit the Saturn/PC/Dreamcast grips for the early revision shafts... externally they should be the same exact shape. the biggest question is if mounting holes and shaft cutout are compatible.
So that'd be another $110 in grips if I couldn't fix the one I've got that spins... And no, I don't have the other PCB T_T.

Maybe I'm just better off seeing about retrofitting the Saturn/PC/DC grips... Guess I have more research ahead of me! Glad to know they're simple digital controls though. But at the point where I'm buying a console stick set to remove the grips to fit over the arcade sticks, it may be just as easy to padhack them and drop them in a panel...
 
the bases of the arcade sticks are way WAY better than the console sticks.

the console sticks have a PCB similar to the Sanwa joysticks half their rigidity comes from gate plate and even that is pretty chincy.

this is what the base of the Saturn/PC/Dreamcast stick looks like:

index.jpg


if I find a better pic I'll post it up but yeah the console sticks are just a PCB sandwiched between two little pieces of plastic.


EDIT: The pic above is the Saturn/PC Stick this is the Dreamcast stick, they're a little better but still pretty terrible compared to the arcade sticks

index.jpg

 
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I recently got a Dreamcast twin stick from YAJ and thought the build quality and the feel of it was pretty damn good :( I guess the arcade version is designed to cop a much harder life than a console equivalent though. Is there some way of improving the console sticks to make them stronger and more like their arcade brethren without completely ruining them for Dreamcast use?

The Dreamcast stick was infinitely more affordable than the MSBS 5.66 setup that I saw pop up on YAJ and hopefully I won't break it :P
 
The Dreamcast sticks aren't bad reliability wise. They're better designed than the Saturn/PC sticks, and they aught to be as they're modified version of the Seimitsu LS-56. They do take more abuse than the normal Seimitu 8-way sticks since the shaft is a lot longer (which means more leverage and more stress) and I'd suspect the anti-rotation setup weakens the base and put it under a bit more stress as well.

As long as you don't abuse the DC sticks and you keep the spring hat greased they should do you well for home use.

These home sticks are likely different than the arcade for both cost savings and space savings.

My biggest gripe with the (pre-Hori) home sticks is that they're much closer together than the arcade setup.

Though to be fair the twin units, candy cabs, and home sticks all have different spacing, though I'm inclined to believe the Twin-units have the "correct" spacing.

If you do take apart your DC sticks/disassemble the base or grip then please take some detailed photos, it'd be nice to do a proper comparison to the the arcade sticks.
 
Will do. Will have to track down some of the grease you mentioned and take it apart and grease it up before I start using it more so I'll take some photos then.
 
That's a nice setup, I was going to try to do the same thing with a set of Dreamcast sticks on a blank Astro City panel, how do you have them connected up to your game?

Edit: silly question should've looked at the last photo. Nice job
 
I can confirm that this isn't working using the Capcom IO, can't even insert coins.

I take it from the great information that @twistedsymphony provided I'd need a sega one and the directions are just P1/P2 directions and P1/P2 LP/MP... What I'll do is get one of the JVS emulators that are coming out and I'll be golden right?

Next step once I know it's all working would be to get a proper panel/get the 360 hori sticks and wire them in. From my quick search though they are so rare they're not even showing up :(
 
@twistedsymphony

Out of curiosity, would VicTroopers sticks work for VO and/or Outtrigger? Maybe from a JVS-PAC and emulation if not real hardware?
 
Out of curiosity, would VicTroopers sticks work for VO and/or Outtrigger? Maybe from a JVS-PAC and emulation if not real hardware?
from a pure data standpoint...
VO needs 12 digital inputs (2 8-way sticks plus 2 thumb buttons plus 2 trigger buttons)
outtrigger needs 7 digital inputs and 2 rotary inputs (1 8-way stick, 1 thumb button, 1 trigger button, one normal button and a trackball)

JVS-PAC is a keyboard emulator so it doesn't support anything but digital inputs which would rule out outtrigger's rotary input requirement.

I'm not to familar with VicTroopers (do you have a VicTrooper setup?! I'd like to see some detailed pics if so!) but it looks like it uses analog sticks so it wont just plug in and work, you'd have to have some kind of conversion circuit to convert the analog sticks to digital for VO and another circuit to simulate rotary outputs for outtrigger

You might be better off with a KADE device simulating Xbox 360 pads as they support analog inputs, then you could do the conversion in software/maybe the emulator will even let you map analog inputs to digital controls in-game.
 
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