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yavuzg

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Well I do not know if this is the right place to open a topic like this but if it is not, apologies...

Quick question; Why my normal DIMM (non-net) boots to a black screen (not boot at all) when I connect my home-made CF adapter?

I upgraded my normal DIMM by replacing the normal daughter board with a netdimm daughterboard and upgraded the current fw (which was already 3.03) to 4.02 via transfergame.exe...

When I unplug the CF adapter it boots to Error 25.

I've tried it on Naomi 1 and Naomi 2. Same...

What am I missing here?
 
Here is the thing. You MUST upgrade the bios of the DIMM to 3.17 BEFORE you upgrade to 4.02. If you do not then you will brick your DIMM. You can either use the rare 3.17 upgrade CD and PIC to upgrade the normal DIMM and then attach the NetDIMM pcb to finish upgrading to 4.02. Or you can remove the bios chip and reprogram it to 3.17 using an eprom programmer. Then you finish by Netbooting to 4.02. This is the method I use. You cannot upgrade to 4.02 using an eprom programmer.

My feeling is your DIMM may not have been at 3.17 and you bricked it by netbooting to 4.02.
 
You are correct that I upgraded THAT DIMM directly from 3.03 to 402 (by changing the daughter card and netboot)

BUT, for another DIMM (yea I have plenty lying around) I did flash the 3.17 fw first (by desoldering the flash, re-flashed and re-solder) and then netboot and upgraded to 4.02. That one is not loading CFs also.

I mean these boards can still netboot. They boot-up with the daughter card also. They just don't boot with the standard SCSI daughter card + the CF adapter. What is "bricking" actually? The daughter card?
 
3.03 might be ok. So there may be an issue with your CF kit itself?
 
Well the CF kit is home-made by me, there might as well be an issue with it.

But it works when I connect it to the netdimm (the very same DIMM boards with netdimm daughter board) change the jumpers of a netDIMM to GD-ROM boot setting and I load games that way...

Should I first flash the bottom board to 3.17 then BEFORE netbooting, should I install the SCSI only daughter board and let the daughter board also "upgrade" itself?

I mean, how do YOU do this? I followed the procedure which TylerDurden67 have written. It looks pretty starightforward... Do I have to change jumpers on the GDROM-only DIMM daughter board?
 
If you did it the way Tyler said then it should work. The jumpers are already set for Gd-rom mode so it should recognize the CF kit just fine. Thing is I have a DIMM that does the same thing. It works with the netboot pcb but not the standard. I was never able to fix it and just bought another. I'm not sure what caused it but it would give me error 22 when using the normal pcb but worked fine with netboot. Weird.
 
No I never get an error 22.

bottom board + netdimm daughter card + CF kit = boots, loads games OK
bottom board + netdimm daughter card + netboot = boots, loads games OK
bottom board + gdrom-only daughter card = boots to Error 25 (which is normal, seeking GD-ROM and not find it)
bottom board + gdrom-only daughter card + CF kit = not even boot. Black screen.

The above list may be interpreted simly as: "Your damn GD-ROM only daughter card is broken" :)

Could be. But all three of them?

I suspected voltages. I changed three power supplies. The one I'm using currently pumping 4.9-5.0 on 5V line and 3.2-3.25 on 3.33 line, while in operation... I'm using ATX power supply since I do not have an original SUN PSU.

I'm also using Capcom I/O (not for powering the Naomi but just for sound amp).
 
I upgraded my last "untouched" DIMM board to 3.17 now (was 1.03 or something)

I tested the DIMM on BIOS menu and reported GOOD.

I let it boot with the GDROM only daughter board. => boots to Error 25 (normal)
I connected my CF kit and it boots to Error 24: GD-ROM is not found.

So, regarding my problem. Facts;

- Nothing to do with voltages. Setup is the same.
- 3.17 does not recognizes the CF kit (obviously)
- Bottom DIMM board works
- GDROM only daughter board seem to work (Seeking GDROM drive and GDROM media)

So. There seem to be something with the 4.02 FW I'm currently using which I downloaded from the link Tyler provided OR I'm using a wrong one...

Is there a special 4.02 for non-net DIMM boards?

Anyway, now I'll dissassemble the last DIMM board and put netdimm equipments and upgrade it to 4.02. We'll see what happens...
 
The 4.02 file is the same for all.

How is your CF kit powered?
 
from cn2. I'm using a CF IDE reader with onboard 3.3v regulator (set internally for 3.3v)
 
I've only used the handmade kits that I sell but I don't know why it wouldn't work if it works on the netDIMM.
 
GOOD NEWS!!!

I solved it! I re-attached the netdimm daughter board so that I can now access to the Network Settings on the BIOS menu. Surprisingly (at least for me) I still see the IP settings there which gave me the impression that these settings are saved in the lower board. Anyway, I deleted the setting by selecting "Clear network settings". Then reboot. Now, even with the netdimm daughter board still attached, Naomi booted with "NAOMI GD-ROM SYSTEM" logo. Previously it was "Network System". Now I powered it off and reattached the GDROM only daughterboard and let it boot. Nothing seems to be different BUT when I powered off, attached my CF kit and reboot, WHOLA! It booted and loaded the game...

So I did this to my other DIMM boards and now all of them boots and loads games.

Moral of the story? I really do not know. I don't know if it was because of the hidden previous network settings or may be all of my DIMM board's SCSI connector had some wear or oxidation problem which went away with numerous times of unplugging & plugging.
 
Nothing surprises me with Naomi hardware anymore.
 
Nothing surprises me with Naomi hardware anymore.

You know what, Its not working today :)

Apparently the issue is not solved. Its f**n amazing that you think you made it worked and the next day, you are back to square one...

I can say that its not related with bad contacts since I checked all of them with multimeter.

I still cannot figure out what is causing this. It sometimes works though... I mean you think you solved it while playing around couple of hours, it just starts working and you think its because what you've changed last...

One thing I'm 100% sure that with netdimm daughterboard its working all the time. With gdrom only daughter board it works once in while without any obvious reason.

Is there anybody out there using normal DIMM baord with a CF-IDE adapter, working all the time?
 
The one I have now works all the time. I use it with one of the CF kits that I sell in my section.
 
Changed the SCSI cable I was using. I'm using ordinary SCSI cables that I picked up from flea market. I was cutting a piece (one SCSI connector on one end and the other end is directly soldered to the CF-IDE adapter). This time I soldered SCSI pins 2, 38, 43 (the ones that didn't have any SCSI-to-IDE connection mapping on PCB Otaku list) to GND on the CF-IDE adapter.

This time it seems it is working consistently (fingers crossed). I do not know if it was because of the cable I was using or because of the extra GND wiring.


The one I have now works all the time. I use it with one of the CF kits that I sell in my section.
My major problem seems that I do not have an official Sega GDROM cable and a kit like yours. SCSI cable seems the key in this Sega Naomi CF adapter adventure.

I'll check this again today and tomorrow and next week :) if it is still working I'll share my specs in detail.

For the record, anyone having the same weird problems or unstable operation, I highly recommend a ready-made kit (like Mitsurugi-w's) and an "official" Sega GDROM cable.

This setup was for a friend who only had a normal DIMM board. Personally I'd stick with the netboot (with a Raspberry Pi or from a MAME PC) solution but it requires a netdimm obviously...
 
Sorry that I may be using this topic as an unorganized activity log but due to lack of information on "unsuccessful experiences" on the internet I thought someone might benefit from my experiences...

Well, its Naomi, expect anything... :)

Trying to stabilize my CF setup, I realize another important thing; The Vcc supplied to the CF Card itself.

It must be filtered properly. It basically depends on the CF card reader's design but most of the cheap CF-to-IDE adapters lack proper components and they are merely bunch of copper lines on a PCB from 40-pin IDC to CF connector...

Anyway, as I mentioned, I managed to get this "CF adapter on normal DIMM board scenario" working BUT it was not as stable I was expecting. Weird things happening such as once in a while, It basically was not booting the game on CF card, just black screen. If you unplug the card and plug it back and reboot, it works. I hate these kind of "unexpected" results :(

So what I've done is that I examined the CF card reader in operation with an oscilloscope and I see the Vcc line feeding the CF card was noisy. I do not know the exact reason but I guess internal fans used in Naomi may be putting some sort of a back emf on the voltage buses. May be my electricity lines, may be ... well its Naomi, may be the weather, the humidity, the Wifi noise etc...

Then I examined the picture of the official Naomi CF reader on pcb otaku. I noticed a 10K resistance (marked as 103) coupled parallel with the filter capacitor on the Vcc line (near CF pins 13 & 38). This is a basic RC filter and is missing on my cheap CF-to-IDE adapter. My adapter only has a single smd capacitor there. I decided to solder a 10K resistor parallel to this smd capacitor.

Amazingly, now my CF adapter is loading all the games everytime, not a single miss. I tested last night and this morning. I'll test it for a few more days. If its still stable for a week, then I can confirm its working...

So far, my observations are:

1) You have to solder pin 2, 38, 43 from the SCSI cable to GND of CF card. (If you are using a net dimm this seems not so important but for normal dimm my setup didn't worked otherwise)
2) Use a quality SCSI cable. The internal cabling of my SCSI cable is twisted pairs. Like all the top row (1 to 25) are twisted pairs with their lower counterparts (26 to 50) 1-26, 2-27 etc. And the resistance of a single line end-to-end was like 1.5 Ohm (the cable was like 3 ft long) whereas my previous unsuccessful cable had a resistance of 4-5 Ohms per single line and the cables were not twisted.
3) If your CF-to-IDE adapter is as cheap as mine and lack proper filtering components then solder a 10K resistor parallel to the smd capacitor right in the middle of the adapter. Keep the legs of the resistor as small as possible.
4) Feed your CF adapter from the same power source you are feeding Naomi or take power from Naomi filter board. Do NOT feed it from a seperate power source. I tried it and all of a sudden I start receiving Error 22's all over. My CF adapter is a simple cheap one and lacks a 3.3V voltage regulator. So I feed it directly from CN2 on Naomi filter board (from the exact 3.3V bus which Naomi and DIMM board is also fed).

And also a reminder, these details are for a non-net, normal DIMM to CF adapter scenario. On net dimm, even a most basic setup works (you still need a quality SCSI cable though)

Obviously, these are my observations and do not take them as expert analysis. After struggling for weeks, "I want to believe" that these are my "logical" reasonings for the unexpected behaviours of Naomi :)
 
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Thanks for the awesome posts/thread. First off, I absolutely understand your frustration and have lived through some of it! It is great you shared your experience as there was little to be found before on what could possibly be wrong with the setup. I have a CF adapter setup (from Mitsurugi-W - which is awesome) with a "non-net" Naomi dimm board. It works great - however, as you said, it would occasionally not load and just go to a black screen. The Naomi was running and everything was "on", but nothing. And like you said, I would reboot or restart the cabinet and it would work fine. Sometimes it would take a few times of rebooting to get it to load properly, but it would eventually work and some CF games would load easier than others. I agree - it is very frustrating to get these quirks and I tried a variety of troubleshooting aspects to find the problem. I thought it might be a rom problem with the ones I was using for the CF cards, but it didn't seem to matter. I then turned to a voltage issue; I do think I had some voltage issues with my cabinet and the 6-1 switcher setup, but I am not sure it will solve this complete problem. The regular Naomi carts and GD-rom would load consistently without any of the inconsistency. I was going to try and power from the Naomi or the Naomi I/O board, but didn't get around to it before getting a continual Error 22 message on my Naomi Dimm. I am using the regular Sega SCSI cable and it worked for my setup other than the occasional black screen until the Dimm started reporting Error 22 messages. I am curious about the addition of the 10K resistor to the adapter - perhaps it is something i need to consider. I would definitely like to power it from the Naomi itself - where did you get the cable to run from the Naomi CN2 to the CF adapter? Did you make it or find it somewhere? I am not great at making these types of cables, would love to know where to get one.
Please keep me posted on this situation and if it has been completely resolved. Mitsurugi-W - is the 10k resister part of your adapter? It would be great to use a net dimm - if they weren't so expensive; I didn't realize the regular dimm might has some issues not found with the net dimm boards. I think I have a good SCSI cable; so now I need to look into the 10K resister perhaps and find a cable to power the adapter from the CN2 of the motherboard. I am currently powering from the Sun power supply. If that solved all the issues with the occasional black screen - I would be extremely happy! Thanks for your information and sharing it to help those of us with similar issues. Please keep me posted on your setup - I hope it is still working perfectly for you.
 
@arcadeWC, based on my further investigation, the problem is mostly voltage related. Last night, and this morning, again after 5-6 hours of frustrating try-error and measurement. I seem to pinpoint the problem.

By voltage, I mean the voltage supplied to the CF card itself and the voltage that CF card internally operates (and factors related with voltage). These details make the card work or not. And these details make "which" card works or not and also which "game" loads better.

During one of my tests, I took out the CF card and hold it in my hand for a while and immediately plugged it back and powered on. Guess what, the game loaded. I first thought it might be static electricity but it was not because I tested it further. I put the card on an aluminum plate to make it cold. Then took it and plugged it back, it didn't worked again. Then while it was in the CF reader, I heated it slightly with my hot-air solder (almost close to body temperature) and powered on the setup, it started working again... Weird isn't it? Actually not...

Further, I took the time to discuss with one of my friends who works for an electronics company mainly on embedded systems (i.e. industrial equipments, meters, data loggers etc). He said that Compact Flash media, although its extremely simple compatibility with legacy IDE technology, is extremely unreliable. It is affected by temperature and manufacturing quality.

Although, in theory, CF media should operate in normal room temperature more or less effectively, my example of heating it juuuust a little only make sense IF the voltage supplied into the card is "barely" around the "safely operable" edge

Please take a look at this photo;

E64AFF9A-C497-411F-82D8-325344FEEA47_zps2sb324sb.jpg


This is the voltage I measured ON the CF card adapter. As you can see how voltage is fluctuating (almost 2 volts!) although the average (see lover left - 3.28v) seems adequate...

I was taking this voltage from the CN2 on Naomi. CN2 is actually a INPUT plug (2x3 plug which only 4 pins populated). It is connected in parallel to the main plug next to it (the 2 x 4 plug). The problem of taking voltage out of this connector is that it is not "filtered". I mean the "filter" board on Naomi which everything else is connected to it is indeed a necessary piece. I stopped using CN2 and took voltage right from the pins sticking out just above the CN2 connector. These pins are the solder legs of the two main connectors which Naomi motherboard is actually connected to the filter board. The 3.3V on these pins are filtered and more stable.


Also, I'm using a (fairly quality) ATX power supply. Although it might be adequate, my major problem is that I cannot adjust voltages, specifically the 3.3V line. I totally rely on the voltage at that time of the day I'm getting.

Anyway, when I left CN2 alone and took voltage out of the pins I mentioned, I got rid of the ripples above (Didn't have the time to take a photo of it but I will). Also, since I do not have control on the voltage of my ATX power supply I do many tests different times. During morning and after dinner time I get better voltage levels (weird but true).

So, when the voltage I measure, on the CF adapter is like 3.35V, my CF cards starts to operate ALL THE TIME. If it is just around 3.3V and lower (3.2-3.28V) it "sometime" works... Please keep in mind that these numbers are highly related with my equipment, i.e. the osciloscope I'm using. But the bottom line, is, if I see 3.35V I'm confident that it'll work.

During boot, like after 10-15 seconds, my CF adapter activity LED flashes for a split second. This seems to be an indication that DIMM board actually checks the CF card. If it does not do that flash, I know I'll end up with a black screen (this is 100% confirmed). After that flash, like 30 seconds or so, I see Naomi logo on screen...

On the otherhand, net dimms seems to perform better. I mean specifically the option board is different and if the setup does not work on normal dimm at that specific time, when I change the option board with a netdimm option board, it works... I think its because they are newer tech and communication voltage levels might be a bit more tolerant.

Regarding the "mods" I made on my CF adapter was merely to help clean and condition the voltage supplied to the CF card, thats all. Again it helps if my voltages are on the edge.

Here they are, input capacitors for voltage conditioning (100uF 16V electrolitic and 100nF ceramic);

14006BC5-885E-49F0-86BA-EC3800EB3300_zpshmermbxc.jpg


The 10K resistor (right in the middle)

8FF6D0D8-8306-4C50-8A9C-C82059D4B6A7_zpsnxlwtadd.jpg


Although at first I thought the original CF adapter that Sega designed connected the way I connected, I'm not sure about it because the picture on the pcb otaku do have shadow right there and I cannot figure out if THAT 10K resistor is connected parallel to the filter capacitor OR it is the pull-up resistor for pin 37 (READY).

I did observed a benefit after connecting it BUT I now think that I might connect it for pin 37 for better results. I'll test that tonight... Btw, most of the CF adapters do not use it. Some have empty solder points for that. It is not a "must" requirement I guess but most of the microcontroller projects recommend that piece.

Anyway, lastly this is my setup... (Note that MVC2 is my "problematic game" that I used mostly during my tests. If it loads, everything loads ;) Everybody on the net shows their setup with Gigawing2. Sure Gigawing loads since its a small game to load like 30 MB something. Try MVC2 or Melty Blood Actress which these games are above 128 MB and takes longer to load, meaning that there is more chance you get bad voltage etc.)

C5EA5FCA-4AD7-4E90-909F-D5C2360EE6F2_zpslkkrbd7p.jpg


And in operation...

B6F4CECD-4DE2-4A74-A8B2-5511E41100D0_zps2jxb0rqe.jpg


My tests will continue. My next tests will be these;

1) Use a small high-precision LDO voltage regulator chip (LT1086 or LM3940). I do not thrust the classic 1117 since my input voltage is not so adequate. I want to make this CF adpater operate with 5V (internally reduced and regulated to 3.3V - just like the Sega one and mitsurugi-w's adapter).
2) Grab an official Naomi PSU (Sun) which has 3.3V adjustment.

I'm beginning to think that if I created my setup with an official SUN psu, I wouldn't be troubled that much... But then again, I wouldn't have that much experience either.

I'll continue to update this thread with my failures and hopefully success ;) (My success criteria is; the setup should work day and night for at least a week and at least on 100 re-boots without even a miss!)
 
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Wow; thanks again for the awesome update. I am anxious to see how it turns out - please keep me posted. I agree it appears to be a voltage issue for me as well. I am actually using in a 6-1 Jamma switcher application and I found that if I unplug the power to the CF adapter just prior to the Naomi staring up - it works much better. Otherwise, if the CF adapter had continual power from the Sun Power Supply and the Naomi then powers up when switched on with the switcher - it had a lower success rate. Thus I wanted to power the CF adapter from the Naomi board itself or the JVS I/O Jamma board so it received power at the same time as the Naomi. Not sure if that was really relevant, but it seemed to help. I do seem to have a few things going in my favor - I am using a Naomi Sun power supply so the 3.3 volts is adjustable. I am using a Sun to power the Jamma switcher AND another Sun to power the Naomi itself. Originally I was using the Sun to power both the Jamma switcher and the Naomi with power splitter and I was using Jamma extenders for the Naomi and other boards. I found the Jamma extenders dropped the voltage dramatically to the boards and thought that was the reason for some of my issues with the Naomi and loading CF games. I have stabilized the voltage issue by using two supplies and getting rid of the extenders - the boards are connected directly to the switcher, no extenders. Big difference, but still get some voltage drop at the switcher which is probably unavoidable. I up the voltage on the Sun to adjust for it. I also have mitsurugi-w's CF adapter so as you mentioned it is powered by 5v. I am going to try and power it from the Naomi motherboard itself or the JVS IO board that has an external power option (version 2). Will need a cable to do so - so still need a source for custom JVS cables if you have any suggestions. I am really hoping my adjustments in setup and voltage will help with the CF adapter once I get my dimm board back from being modified and will try it again. Actually MvsC was one that work consistently for me and Gigawing 2 was difficult to load.
So if I am hearing you correctly, the 3.3 volt is actually important and perhaps as important as the 5v. So turn up the 3.3 volt to around 3.35 (or above) to help the situation and power the CF from the Naomi itself (after filters). Or is this irrelevant since I have mitsurugi-w's adapter? Is this important even if using a standard Naomi Sun power supply? I would like to do so anyway as it "seemed" to matter if the Naomi and CF adapter powered off/on at the same time AND I wasn't sure if I should swap out CF cards if power is still going to it while the Naomi is not the selected game in the switcher. However, if getting the voltage directly from the Sun and not through the Jamma switcher and JVS I/O Version 2, it will be less susceptible to any voltage drop. Any thoughts on the ideal way to get power to it? With mitsurugi-w's adapter - it seems very flexible on how to get the voltage.
Keep me posted on your results - I will be following and I should be able to try my setup next week and report on any results based on using the Sun power supply and perhaps turning up the 3.3 volt slightly. Also using the Sega SCSI cable so I should be good there as well. My final goal is the same as yours - loading successfully EVERY time; can't wait to report that is the case..
 
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