Cadillacs and Dinosaurs (Half bootleg) worth dumping the ROMs? or convert it?

[yavuzg]

I just acquired a CPS1 boardset. The seller was selling it as C & D. I knew it was a bootleg but the price was OK for just a working A board, a spare C board and sh** load of EPROMs. The B board is a genuine bootleg, not a convert/hack, with a PIC16C55 microcontroller on it.

It plays the C&D with correct name & logo (Not a "Dinosaur Hunter"). The sprite priorities are OK (Better than the single PCB bootlegs). The levels seems correct. The only problem I see with this half-bootleg is that the music in levels are looping. I understand this is an adaption for the lacking Q-sound but the loop is taken so short It really sounds annoying.

I've read some MAME source code on the net mentioning a bootleg B-board with PIC but the title was Street Fighter not C&D.

My questions are;

1) Can I convert this into something else? Such as Ghouls'n Ghosts?
2) Do you think it would worth dumping the ROMs before I decide what to do with this? (May be they are already in MAME, don't know yet)
3) The bootlegger scratched out the C board ASICs model number on the chip. The C board PCB is a 88622-C-5, just like the Final Fight C board but the ASIC is not a CPS-B-04 (tested on my FF didnt worked). Is there a way to determine the type of the C board asic by examining the program ROM codes?

 

[twistedsymphony]

Do you think it would worth dumping the ROMs before I decide what to do with this? (May be they are already in MAME, don't know yet)

definitely confirm if it's been dumped and dump it before you hack it up for parts
@rtw do you know if this bootleg has been dumped?

 

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

Pictures would be helpful. Yes go ahead and dump the roms before converting it. Personally I wouldn't bother converting it since it's already a good game and the center bootleg board could stop you dead in your tracks/force you to hack roms up just to get it to work, but do whatever you want. I dumped something like this a few years ago but it used a normal B board. I think it was hacked to use a different game's sounds since the original had different sound hardware but I don't really remember details. You can download it:

https://www.sendspace.com/file/jgxyp1

3) The bootlegger scratched out the C board ASICs model number on the chip. The C board PCB is a 88622-C-5, just like the Final Fight C board but the ASIC is not a CPS-B-04 (tested on my FF didnt worked). Is there a way to determine the type of the C board asic by examining the program ROM codes?

http://www.arcadecollecting.com/info/cps-b_numbers.html

Look at Final Fight (alt). So it's probably really a CPS-B-01.

 

[jassin000]

I don't think it's worth converting, do dump the roms out however... They could be useful for MAME and/or the CPS1.5-to-CPS2 conversion effort.

 

[yavuzg]

OK. Here are the pictures of the board:

This is the C board. I can confirm that it is not a 04 (as in Final Fight) or a 13 (as in Magic Sword)

This is the PIC I mentioned. Except for this PIC, the B board design is copied from a 89624B board.

 

[Apocalypse]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out to be the conversion I made (files were available for free for months):

http://arcadefixer.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/conversion-sf2-to-cadillacs-dinosaurs.html

 

[yavuzg]

I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turned out to be the conversion I made (files were available for free for months):

http://arcadefixer.blogspot.co.nz/2017/04/conversion-sf2-to-cadillacs-dinosaurs.html

I'm currently dumping the ROMs. Tested a few on online ROMIdent site (http://romident.coinopflorida.com) none of them so far showed up as a known ROM. Ofcourse that site might not have the most recent ROM checksums.

I can share the SHA1 hashes if you want to confirm these are your modified ROMs or not.

 

[Apocalypse]

I can share the SHA1 hashes if you want to confirm these are your modified ROMs or not.

You must merge/interleave files first as my hack was for big ROMs (512k instead of 4 * 128k).
You can do it with any decent hex editor.

It's absolutely normal none shows as known as OG C&D uses 512k ROMs not 128k. But it doesn't mean data aren't identical.

 

[Apocalypse]

Did you dump all the ROMs?


1) Can I convert this into something else? Such as Ghouls'n Ghosts? => Yes sure.
2) Do you think it would worth dumping the ROMs before I decide what to do with this? (May be they are already in MAME, don't know yet) => Humm... I'm afraid this is just my hack, it's a bit tense between some dumping members and me and what I feared is just happening: people are sending my hacks for inclusion in MAME thinking it's just an unknown bootleg.
3) The bootlegger scratched out the C board ASICs model number on the chip. The C board PCB is a 88622-C-5, just like the Final Fight C board but the ASIC is not a CPS-B-04 (tested on my FF didnt worked). Is there a way to determine the type of the C board asic by examining the program ROM codes? => Yes.

 

[jassin000]

people are sending my hacks for inclusion in MAME thinking it's just an unknown bootleg.

This is a two part problem, the first issue and biggest issue is people are selling your work without clearly labeling it as such.
Maybe in a effort to gain even more money by confusing it with an original and not disclosing the truth to the buyers?

 

[twistedsymphony]

I think the problem is this:

The B board is a genuine bootleg, not a convert/hack

From the pictures it's clearly a conversion... NOT a bootleg.

Bootleg = someone manufactured a completely new PCB that was reverse engineered from the original

Conversion = someone modified an genuine PCB to play a different game.


Bootlegs belong on MAME... conversions often don't.

 

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

If one of the pcbs is a bootleg you might as well call the whole thing a boot. Especially CPS1, this was done over and over.

This might sound heartless but it's buyers' responsibility to educate themselves enough to know if a board is a bootleg or not by examining pcb pictures before buying. On some conversions if they got super sneaky like removing and replacing the original rom stickers that could fool anyone, but that virtually never happens.

 

[Apocalypse]

I think the problem is this:

The B board is a genuine bootleg, not a convert/hack

From the pictures it's clearly a conversion... NOT a bootleg.

Bootleg = someone manufactured a completely new PCB that was reverse engineered from the original

Conversion = someone modified an genuine PCB to play a different game.


Bootlegs belong on MAME... conversions often don't.

OP is right, the B-board is a bootleg in the sense you describe it: "Bootleg = someone manufactured a completely new PCB that was reverse engineered from the original".
However it's also a conversion.

Also I'm curious where yavuzg got it (can you send seller's name in MP?).

 

[jassin000]

From the pictures it's clearly a conversion... NOT a bootleg.

This visual identification can be tricky tho, take for example the CPS1 Capcom Mitchell board Pang 3.

Nothing else on CPS1 looks like that period.
If all you've seen is vanilla B-boards, you'll think this is some type of bootleg.

 

[twistedsymphony]

So this was a bootleg that was then converted? or you made a whole new B-board just for the conversion?

 

[yavuzg]

@twistedsymphony, the B-board is indeed a "back-then" (around 90's) reproduction. It is not originally manufactured by Capcom (or whoever the official PCB manufacturer for Capcom was back then). The photos can be misleading because it is indeed a good repro. How I can tell?

First , there are no Capcom logo or B-board number silkscreened. Second, when you hold it, you feel its repro, lighter green solder mask, poor solder job. Third, the PALs are not officially labeled (i.e. no code or numbers on them) and lastly, the idiots soldered one of the C-board connectors the other way around (I mean one of the notches on C-board connector needs to bend it to get plugged in)

Also, it is not a 100% copy of any known Capcom B-board. There is this PIC microcontroller which I don't know its purpose. May be to protect the bootleg from other bootleggers

Anyway, the A and C are originals. This is a typical repro from China (or Spain or Italy) which uses un-reproducable parts from "not so popular" games (another reason that they are now rare and have high collectable value).

I gave up on this since there is no way I can manage to get something up running on this board because of that PIC and none of the ROMs seems match to anything. I tried combining the ROMs but they don't match up with anything either...

@Apocalypse, the seller was a local guy, bought it from one of the "ebay like" local online sites. Don't think he has the ability to re-shuffle/customize your modified ROMs. And again, the reason I got this was to get a spare working A board and C-board. I'll contact you later for Ghouls'n Ghosts ROMs when my non-working SFII WW arrives

 

[yavuzg]

Did you dump all the ROMs?


1) Can I convert this into something else? Such as Ghouls'n Ghosts? => Yes sure.
2) Do you think it would worth dumping the ROMs before I decide what to do with this? (May be they are already in MAME, don't know yet) => Humm... I'm afraid this is just my hack, it's a bit tense between some dumping members and me and what I feared is just happening: people are sending my hacks for inclusion in MAME thinking it's just an unknown bootleg.
3) The bootlegger scratched out the C board ASICs model number on the chip. The C board PCB is a 88622-C-5, just like the Final Fight C board but the ASIC is not a CPS-B-04 (tested on my FF didnt worked). Is there a way to determine the type of the C board asic by examining the program ROM codes? => Yes.

@Apocalypse, I don't think this is your work. We see these old bootlegs here in Turkey for years. BUT, if you still in doubt, I can surely send you the ROM dumps for examination. I've dumped only the 15 ROMs last night and gave up. But I can surely continue to dump the rest.

I have technical knowledge to do many console/arcade modifications, small projects etc but I surely cannot work on CPS1 ROMs like you. So if you are interested, I can just send you the ROMs, you examine them, and if determine they can be replaced with Ghouls'n Ghosts, then I can surely make a donation to you for this set. If not interested, I'll ask for a GnG set for SFIIWW...

Btw, I paid like $50 for this. So I don't think the guy was trying to get some cash, more like he was trying to get rid of it

 

[Muchi Muchi Spork]

There is this PIC microcontroller which I don't know its purpose. May be to protect the bootleg from other bootleggers

That probably is it. Some Street Fighter 2 hacks used a customized pal and the Mortal Kombat hack daughter boards used a pal on them.

 

[Apocalypse]

There is this PIC microcontroller which I don't know its purpose. May be to protect the bootleg from other bootleggers

That probably is it. Some Street Fighter 2 hacks used a customized pal and the Mortal Kombat hack daughter boards used a pal on them.

Probably a leftover for the SF2 bootleg (you have all the details about that chip being used on SF2 bootlegs in MAME's source). I'm pretty sure C&D can run without it.

@yavuzg : the reason I think it's my work is I've been contacted some months ago by a Turkish guy wanting to use a different B-board. See where we're going?

 

[Darksoft]

interesting finding. Is there any specific type of board that must be used for this version?