Any PGM Conversion info out there?

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    • While I'm waiting for the PCBs to arrive, this are my current thoughts about a replacement cartridge, inspired by lions3.com/product/mvs-custom-game-shell/ :

      (This doesn't include all the notches to fit sides together or holes for screws.)

      Basically laser-cut acrylic for all the straight sides, with 3D printed brackets to fit the bevelled sides. I'm not sure how cost effective the 3D printing is, maybe it'll be better to make a mould and then cast sides from resin.

      Though at the moment I have neither access to a 3D printer or a laser cutter...

      Or does anyone have another idea how to get cartridge shells? Can you replicate original cartridge shells with resin casting?
    • twistedsymphony wrote:

      This blog entry is the best info I've found: newastrocity.wordpress.com/2013/07/21/cave-conversions/

      it lists which games can be used as donors but it's unclear if you can use MAME ROMs or if the ROMs need to be patched to bypass security.

      ------------------------------
      LATEST UPDATE: 2019-15-01
      Since this thread has become so huge I've created a list of every IGS PCB Number I can find and if a successful conversion has been documented on it....


      PCBs marked with:
      * are suitable donor PCBs with successful documented conversions
      + are thought to be potential donors but have no documented conversions yet
      - are thought to not be suitable for conversion

      ~IGS PCB NO-0133-2 (Main board) [the main board of the mobo]
      -IGS PCB NO-0134-1 (PRG) - Oriental Legend
      -IGS PCB NO-0135 (GFX) - Dragon World II, Oriental Legend, Oriental Legend Super
      ~IGS PCB NO-0136 (Riser) [cart port on the mobo]

      -IGS PCB NO-0162 (PRG) - Dragon World II

      +IGS PCB NO-0179 (PRG) - Killing Blade +Espgaluda +Ketsui
      *IGS PCB NO-0179-2 (PRG) - Killing Blade *Espgaluda +Ketsui Conversion 1 Conversion 2
      *IGS PCB NO-0178 (GFX) - Killing Blade, Dragon World 3, Dragon World 3 EX *Espgaluda +Ketsui Conversion 1

      -IGS PCB NO-0189 (PRG) - Dragon World 3
      -IGS PCB NO-0189-1 (PRG) - Dragon World 3 EX

      -IGS PCB NO-0191-1 (PRG) - Oriental Legend Super

      +IGS PCB NO-0212-1 (PRG) - Knights of Valour +DDP DOJ
      *IGS PCB NO-0213 (GFX) - Knights of Valour Plus *DDP DOJ conversion 1
      +IGS PCB NO-0213T (GFX) - Knights of Valour +DDP DOJ

      -IGS PCB NO-0220 (PRG) - Photo Y2K
      -IGS PCB NO-0221 (GFX) - Photo Y2K
      +IGS PCB NO-0222 (PRG) - Knights of Valour, Knights of Valour Plus +DDP DOJ
      *IGS PCB NO-0222-1 (PRG) -Knights of Valour Plus *DDP DOJ conversion 1

      -IGS PCB NO-T0236 (PRG) - Puzzle Star
      -IGS PCB NO-T0237 (GFX) - Puzzle Star

      *IGS PCB NO-0256-1 (GFX) - Knights of Valour Super Heroes *DDP DOJ conversion 1 conversion 2
      +IGS PCB NO-0257 (PGR) - Knights of Valour Super Heroes +DDP DOJ
      *IGS PCB No-0257-1 (PRG) - Knights of Valour Super Heroes *DDP DOJ conversion 1 conversion 2
      -IGS PCB NO-0258 (GFX) - Puzzli 2
      -IGS PCB NO-0259 (PRG) - Puzzli 2

      +IGS PCB-0292-00 (GFX) - Martial Masters +Espgaluida +Ketsui
      +IGS PCB-0293-01 (PRG) - Martial Masters +Espgaluida +Ketsui

      -IGS PCB-0313-00T (PRG) - Photo Y2K2
      -IGS PCB-0314-00 (GFX) - Photo Y2K2

      +IGS PCB-0333-00 (PRG) - Knights of Valour 2 +Espgaluda +Ketsui
      *IGS PCB-0333-01-FT (PRG) - Knights of Valour 2 +Espgaluda +Ketsui Conversion 1
      +IGS PCB-0333-02-FI (PRG) - Knights of Valour 2 +Espgaluda +Ketsui
      *IGS PCB-0333-03-FI (PRG) - Knights of Valour 2 *Ketsui *Espgaluda Conversion 1 Conversion 2 Conversion 3 Conversion 4
      +IGS PCB-0333-09-FI (PRG) - Knights of Valour 2 +Espgaluida +Ketsui

      *IGS PCB-0334-00 (GFX) - Knights of Valour 2 *Ketsui *Espgaluda Conversion 1 Conversion 2 Conversion 3 Conversion 4

      -IGS PCB-0349-01-FL (PRG) - Dragon World 2001
      -IGS PCB-0350-00T-FL-A (GFX) - Dragon World 2001

      +IGS PCB-0354-01-FN (PRG) - DoDonPachi 2 +Espgaluida +Ketsui
      +IGS PCB-0355-00T-FN-A (GFX) - DoDonPachi 2 +Espgaluida +Ketsui

      +IGS PCB-0387-02-FV (PRG) - Demon Front +Espgaluida +Ketsui

      +IGS PCB-0390-00-FV-A (GFX) - Demon Front +Espgaluida +Ketsui

      *IGS PCB-0490-00-GZ (PRG) - Knights of Valour Super Heroes *DDP DOJ Conversion 1 (info) (pics)

      *IGS PCB-0568-00-GZ-B (GFX) - Knights of Valour Super Heroes *DDP DOJ Conversion 1 (info) (pics)

      ---------------------------
      These are the ROM files to use:

      Do Don Pachi Dai Ou Jou
      -Program ROM (Black Label Only): ddpdojblkbl
      -Program ROM (white Label Only): [unavailable]
      -Program ROM (Dual Boot): [undumped]
      -All other ROMs: ddp3

      Espgaluda
      -Program ROM: espgalbl
      -All other ROMs: espgal

      Ketsui
      -Program ROM (Original Only): ketbl
      -Program ROM (Arrange Only): Any PGM Conversion info out there?
      -Program ROM (Dual Boot): Any PGM Conversion info out there?
      -All other ROMs: ket

      ---------------------------

      Other useful threads:
      Ketsui Trap Arrange ROM:
      Any PGM Conversion info out there?

      Ketsui dual boot ROM:
      Any PGM Conversion info out there?

      Ketsui dual boot switch wiring:
      Any PGM Conversion info out there?

      Ketsui dual boot switch mounting:
      Any PGM Conversion info out there?

      non-board specific PAL Modification Instructions for Ketsui and Espgaluda
      Any PGM Conversion info out there?

      program ROM PCB mapping
      Any PGM Conversion info out there?
      hi :

      This may have been added and i could be wrong. I believe ketsui can be converted from a knights of valour 2 nine dragons cartridge.
      I have see. One or two listings online showing a nine dragons version. Check the below listing

      buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/c7…c=1#group=nogroup&photo=0

      Regards
      Euphoria
      ^^
    • euphoria wrote:

      This may have been added and i could be wrong. I believe ketsui can be converted from a knights of valour 2 nine dragons cartridge.
      I have see. One or two listings online showing a nine dragons version. Check the below listing
      Thanks, but it doesn't get added to the list until we can confirm the PCB Number. The original game doesn't matter so much as the PCB model.
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    • As a nice surprise, the PCBs arrived today! I originally expected them for Monday. Though it is a one of those good news/bad news things:

      Good news:

      To make most of the order and the shipping costs I decided to order v1.1 of the char board and some other PCBs as well.

      The green board is a Sega Saturn USB cart from github.com/andersm/usbcart / antime.kapsi.fi/sega/usbcart/usbcart.html. I am not sure when I have time to experiment with it, but it was cheap enough to order a few. Let me know if anyone wants one, I need only one and I have 5. I ordered cheap lead-solder-levelling, though, so don't lick them.
      The blue board is a SNES cart, similar to the Second Dimension PCB. Nothing exciting, the footprint is to use up some 29F040 I've got laying around, and it uses the usual SuperCIC code on a PIC.

      The top red board is version 1 of the prog board and the bottom red board is version 1.1 of the char board. I ordered both of them in 1.6mm instead of 1.2mm, hopefully they fit a bit tighter to avoid connection problems. The standard for PC-ISA cards is 1.6mm, and they seem to recycle those slot connectors for the cartridge connector.


      Instead of a debug header I just put extra jumper connectors next to the unknown pins. And I already found a (slight) problem: If you install the left capacitor laying down it conflicts with the footprint for J1... Doh! They are optional, though, so not a biggie.

      Unfortunately bad news:

      So while the console didn't burn up, it just boots into the bios and the test menu so far... I'll see if I can diagnose the problem tomorrow, and maybe try the other games as well.

      Edit: small update, I swapped the Program ROM and PAL for Espgaluda, and I get a garbled screen. So something is happening.

      I decided to keep trying with Espgaluda, so I don't have to wait through the BIOS boot sequence to see what happens.

      Update:

      Ok, results so far:
      - neither P-ROM or PAL: Boot into BIOS
      - no P-ROM: Boot into BIOS
      - no PAL: Scrambled screen
      - both P-ROM and PAL: Scrambled screen

      So, first of all there seems to be a collision between the P-ROM and the BIOS, even if no OE is generated.
      Second, the PAL should permanently disable the BIOS by pulling INT_P_ROM_OE high, so with a PAL installed it should not boot into the BIOS.

      Interesting.

      Update:
      Installing the P-ROM but pulling OE high allows the BIOS to boot.

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Fluffy ().

    • Boom-Shakalaka:


      So, the problem was this 100 Ohm resistor that I didn't populate because it is missing from the Lydz board (as far as I can tell...) It goes from +5V to pin 21 on J1. I noticed without it that pulling INT_P_ROM_OE high or low didn't make a difference. I expected pulling INT_P_ROM_OE high would crash the motherboard without a P-ROM, but it was still happily booting. Adding the resistor crashed the motherboard, and re-installing the PAL and the P-ROM booted the game. (In all my piles of electronics stuff I found exactly ONE 100 Ohm resistor...)


      So I expect that pin works as a cart-insertion test.

      So the next step is populating and testing the 1.1 char board, and testing the remaining games. :)
      (Oh, and since I'm a numpty who doesn't have his neo geo controllers at home, I'll probably have to hack up a simple controller...)

      Edit: The 1.1 char board seems to work fine, and I booted Ketsui. I don't think I need to post the picture, it is identical to the one above just with Ketsui on the monitor. Now I have to hunt for the small bag of switches that I'm sure is somewhere on my desk...

      Edit: I credit-stuffed through Ketsui and Espgaluda and most of the game worked fine. I had that sprite glitch in the last level that someone mentioned above, though not because I was playing well but because the screen was filling with bullets and I got destroyed... I found that I burned the wrong tile-ROM for DoDonPachi, but most of my remaining EPROMs seem to be duds, so I'll have to order more. :( Otherwise it is promising. :)

      The post was edited 3 times, last by Fluffy ().

    • Fluffy wrote:

      So, the problem was this 100 Ohm resistor that I didn't populate because it is missing from the Lydz board (as far as I can tell...) It goes from +5V to pin 21 on J1.
      I wonder if this is the missing part to getting Killing Blade conversions working as well.
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    • twistedsymphony wrote:

      I wonder if this is the missing part to getting Killing Blade conversions working as well.
      Do you have R1 on gc8tech.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/TKB_BOTTOM_1.jpg ? That seems to be the most likely candidate on that PCB, and it is in a similar position on my other boards.

      Edit, easy test if it is related:
      Pull both the address-decoding PAL and the program ROM, and try to boot. If you boot into the BIOS then the problem come from the collision between game ROM and BIOS. If you just get a screen of random garbage then the BIOS selection works correctly and the problem lies somewhere else.

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Fluffy ().

    • Since I got a Demon Front cart recently I decided to see what I can discover on the board. At least one person is looking at DF, so here is my WIP schematic.

      These are the connections from the cart connector to the first chip they connect to, and the internal RAM/ROM connections for the ARM/ASIC side of things. I haven't looked at the shared SRAM circuit, yet.

      Notes:
      - FV U34 controls T-ROM decoding
      - FV U15A controls P-ROM decoding
      - FV U21 seems to control ROM/RAM decoding for the ARM
      - U33 seems to be extra work RAM for the ARM
      - P-ROM is connected directly to the bus, so no extra Killing Blade-style obfuscation I can see
      - the address line connections A8-A14 from J1 to the P-ROM and to J2 are going through a resistor array RN1-RN4

      While I don't plan to develop a multi cart myself, I'm slightly curious if you could replace the ASIC (and lots of the 74LSxx logic on the board) with an off-the-shelf ARM7 microcontroller and a small to medium sized CPLD... A bit of a problem is that a lot of the ARM7 technology seems to be already obsolete, so the choice in devices gets smaller.
      You would still have to patch and decrypt all games you want to run, but at least it'll be easier to run games that offload a lot of logic to the ARM board.

      Update:
      A quick test with an unencrypted DoDonPachi replacing the P-ROM. Boots without problems. So the next thing would be dumping the PAL and recovering the equations, and maybe I can solve the mystery of the Killing Blade conversions. (I don't recommend converting Demon Front to DoDonPachi, btw. Though should be trivial.) I'll see if I can do that next weekend.

      This is using a 27c322 with DDP in both banks. The board uses a 27c160, and that has /byte at the pin that has A20 on the 27c322.

      (BTW, I have the strong feeling that map data for DDP/Espgaluda and Ketsui is stored non-compressed... maybe I'll write a map extractor some day. If there isn't one already.)

      The post was edited 2 times, last by Fluffy ().

    • Fluffy wrote:

      While I don't plan to develop a multi cart myself, I'm slightly curious if you could replace the ASIC (and lots of the 74LSxx logic on the board) with an off-the-shelf ARM7 microcontroller and a small to medium sized CPLD... A bit of a problem is that a lot of the ARM7 technology seems to be already obsolete, so the choice in devices gets smaller.
      This is what the "Hacked" carts do. They have a Lattice CPLD and a ARM7 core chip wired to the CPLD.
      If you would like i have no issues sending you some hack carts for referance?? I know it may not help your CAVE pcbs... But may help for other games...

      D.
    • The problem is that I don't have the equipment to dump or analyse those chips, so I can't do much more than look at them.

      I did have a look at the data sheets - the one on gc8tech.com/uncategorized/pgm-hacked-cart-2-pcbs/ doesn't have the external memory interface and not enough internal memory for a bigger game, so they don't really help.

      So far I haven't found a good replacement for the CPU, and while it is possible to get a soft-core for an FPGA that is far outside my money and time budget...

      The post was edited 1 time, last by Fluffy ().

    • Progress on the demon front schematic.

      Notes:
      - The two SRAM U12 and U13 seem do be double-buffered, i.e. when the M68k has access to one, the ARM has access to the other
      - The hex inverter U27 is used to control the select lines, making sure access is swapped correctly
      - The 74FST3257 multiplex the data lines
      - The 74LS157 multiplex the address and signal lines
      - The 74LS374 seem to be used as 8-bit latch registers from M68k to ARM and from ARM to M68k
      - The PAL U34 seems to control SRAM direction
      Files
      • demonfront.pdf

        (659.73 kB, downloaded 19 times, last: )