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BTW, for anyone thinking of doing their own Sega Type 2 gun to Mame setup, it's worth checking out the knock-off HOD4 guns on Aliexpress. They are sold for $94 without a sensor but, unlike the official Sega guns, they already have a recoil solenoid instead of the knocker. The knocker doesn't have any function so the solenoid is a far better use of space IMO.

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32966607517.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.54901331W2dITr

I am rarely in favor of buying the cheap Chinese knock-off but Sega's price for the official gun is outrageous and the American version is a revolting pinky red color. As long as you add an official sensor unit, the performance would be identicle for 1/8 of the price with the Chinese version - except in black and with recoil.

They also seem to have a new product for HOD guns. It's some kind of PCB with 7 pin gun input, 9 pin out plus 24v in. In typical Aliexpress fashion, they don't state what it's for or have any info at all. The 24v in makes me think it's s recoil controller.
This is very interesting...I have been looking for a HOTD4 gun (red) for some time, but as you stated the cost is outrageous. I need to clarify - so this option works essentially "plug and play" with a Sega Type II I/O board and authentic arcade setup except you need to add the sensor unit to the gun itself? You mentioned Sega Type 2 setup to MAME which confused me - I am simply looking to use with an authentic Sega Type II gun arcade setup and avoid the incredible cost of the HOTD4 gun itself. This would be an option to consider? The recoil would be a great bonus...any concerns with giving this a try?
 
I can't see it in the pic so I assume it doesn't. It isn't needed to play HOD4 in Teknoparrot anyway so it only matters for those planning to use it with original hardware.

Even then, small accelerometers are cheap and fairly universal in terms of compatibility. It would be hard to replace like the gun sensor.

Quick (hopefully last) question on the wiring... Does the pinout for the 9 pin output of the BD gun sense board go from top to bottom or bottom to top in your write-up? I can see from the pics that you wrote the pin labels in reverse order for the gun sensor and led board input but the gun input board list is written from top to bottom (same as the photo). There is no photo of your 9 pin output harness though so I can't tel if ground or trigger is at the top?
 
Does the pinout for the 9 pin output of the BD gun sense board go from top to bottom or bottom to top in your write-up?
on the gun sense board pin 1 of every connector is the one closest to the top of the photo.
 
BTW, for anyone thinking of doing their own Sega Type 2 gun to Mame setup, it's worth checking out the knock-off HOD4 guns on Aliexpress. They are sold for $94 without a sensor but, unlike the official Sega guns, they already have a recoil solenoid instead of the knocker. The knocker doesn't have any function so the solenoid is a far better use of space IMO.

https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32966607517.html?spm=2114.12057483.0.0.54901331W2dITr

I am rarely in favor of buying the cheap Chinese knock-off but Sega's price for the official gun is outrageous and the American version is a revolting pinky red color. As long as you add an official sensor unit, the performance would be identicle for 1/8 of the price with the Chinese version - except in black and with recoil.

They also seem to have a new product for HOD guns. It's some kind of PCB with 7 pin gun input, 9 pin out plus 24v in. In typical Aliexpress fashion, they don't state what it's for or have any info at all. The 24v in makes me think it's s recoil controller.
This is very interesting...I have been looking for a HOTD4 gun (red) for some time, but as you stated the cost is outrageous. I need to clarify - so this option works essentially "plug and play" with a Sega Type II I/O board and authentic arcade setup except you need to add the sensor unit to the gun itself? You mentioned Sega Type 2 setup to MAME which confused me - I am simply looking to use with an authentic Sega Type II gun arcade setup and avoid the incredible cost of the HOTD4 gun itself. This would be an option to consider? The recoil would be a great bonus...any concerns with giving this a try?
Take a look (further down the page) at the pics on Aliexpress. They show what's inside their gun and what's included. It's everything you'd find in the official gun minus the sensor, the Accelerometer and the knocker mechanism but plus a solenoid (that you don't get with the official gun).

This is what you get inside the official Hod4 gun (the accelerometer is behind the sensor):



I regret buying mine. I only got it because I thought it had a recoil mechanism. I ended up removing the pointless (and slightly annoying) knocker to fit a Terminator Salvation solenoid:



It looks like the Chinese one comes with the same connector for the sensor inside the gun so that part would be plug in n play. In terms of connecting the gun to the BD gun sense I/O board, nothing is plug in n play with Sega. If you don't hate them now, you will when you're done. The gun hose connector does not match the gun input (even on the official gun). The only way to get plug in n play is to spend a further fortune on the official harness for the specific game. Each game gun requires a different harness because God forbid anything should be easy... Or you spend a considerable amount of time making your own harness...

If you want to play HOD4 specifically on real hardware, you would need to add your own accelerometer to the Chinese gun and add an extra 4 wires to the hose for it. If you want to play other games (with just one or two buttons) on real hardware, the Chinese gun would be as plug in n play as the official type 2 pistols (once you added a sensor). If you play Hod4 in Teknoparrot, you only need to add the sensor as the shaking reload can be mapped to other controls.

All of the above is the same regardless if you output the BD gun sense board to a PC for Mame or the analog input on a JVS arcade I/O. You can use one set up for both by simply switching output cables.

If you live in America, there is an official Hod4 gun on ebay currently for $250. About the same as the Chinese one plus a used sensor and shipping. You can get a Terminator solenoid from Betson for around $40 (including the brass knocker you need to hold it together). You should grab the official one if you plan to use real hardware for Hod4 or any of the newer games that use the accelerometer.
 
I find the solenoid pointless. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. At least this can be used for parts to fix an official gun so this isn't an official loss.
 
chances are the ali one is made for Rambo not HOTD4. Rambo used the same gun (some cabs shipped with HOTD4 style guns, others shipped with Ghost Squad style guns). Rambo didn't use the accelerometer but could be configured to work with either kick-back (like Ghost Squad) or shaker (like HOTD4).
 
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No, it came from a Hod4 cab. The seller was parting out the cab due to a broken monitor (or something).
The gun is the same regardless if it goes on a Rambo or Hod4 cab though (at least that's how it's sold at Happ and Betson). The accelerometer and knocker are used for Hod4 . I have no idea if they take them out for original Rambo cabs but the replacement guns all have them.
It's the Deluxe Rambo cabs that come with Ghost Squad guns but, for some reason, no recoil option was offered for Hod4.

It seems like Segs has finally learnt the error of their ways because all their newer cabs seem to come with recoil as standard (like all shooting games should). The House of the Dead Scarlett Dawn guns are one of the best arcade guns I have used (in terms of look and feel, not accuracy obviously).
 
No, it came from a Hod4 cab. The seller was parting out the cab due to a broken monitor (or something).
I'm talking about the one on ali-express

for some reason, no recoil option was offered for Hod4.
Simple, recoil mechanisms are for single-shot guns: pistols, shotguns, rifles.

HOTD4 is a machine-gun which would be rapid/auto fire, which is why it has a vibration motor instead.

trying to rapid fire a recoil mechanism one one of these guys is bit more technically complex and it would have a very short lifespan. normal recoil mechanisms tend to tear themselves apart after a while, and doing that rapid fire they'd wear out an order of magnitude faster.
 
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I find the solenoid pointless. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. At least this can be used for parts to fix an official gun so this isn't an official loss.
To each his own. Having recoil adds a lot to the experience for me. It makes it feel more arcade-like and realistic. Without it the guns just feel dead like you're playing with a mouse. I'd rather not play at all than play without recoil. There is a reason why most of the best arcade shooters have it. It's awesome.

In terms of the part you think can be used to fix the official guns, if you're talking about the knocker, it serves no actual function in a game. It's not the accelerometer. That's a small square PCB just behind the sensor (mounted vertically). The knocker has no electronics or wires. It's just a metal rod on a hinge that makes a rattling sound when you shake the gun (which usually can't even be heard in a loud arcade anyway). You can remove it and 99.9% of people would not even notice when playing Hod4. The shake to reload thing is handled by the accelerometer, not the knocker.

I don't get how anyone could find a recoil solenoid pointless while finding a point to a rattle. I thought something was broken or a screw had come loose until I opened it up. It's definitely not one of Sega's better design choices.
 
No, it came from a Hod4 cab. The seller was parting out the cab due to a broken monitor (or something).
I'm talking about the one on ali-express
for some reason, no recoil option was offered for Hod4.
Simple, recoil mechanisms are for single-shot guns: pistols, shotguns, rifles.

HOTD4 is a machine-gun which would be rapid/auto fire, which is why it has a vibration motor instead.

trying to rapid fire a recoil mechanism one one of these guys is bit more technically complex and it would have a very short lifespan. normal recoil mechanisms tend to tear themselves apart after a while, and doing that rapid fire they'd wear out an order of magnitude faster.
That's not accurate. Lots of full auto arcade shooters have a recoil mechanism (using both solenoids and motors). The HOD4 guns have no recoil at all.

For example, Ghost Squad, HOD Scarlett Dawn, Terminator salvation, Jurassic Park (Raw Thrills version) Operation Thunderbolt, Gen X, Terminator 2, Razing Storm, Steel gunner 1 and 2, Rambo Deluxe and the new Ghost squad game are all full auto shooting games which use a solenoid for recoil. Plus, you have games like Time Crisis 2, 3, 4 and 5 which use a recoil solenoid for both semi and full auto.

Then you have full auto games that use a motor for recoil like Op Wolf, Crisis Zone, Gunblade, Terraburst, Op Thunder Hurricane, LA machine guns etc. The point is that the game being a full auto shooter is no excuse for not having recoil. They certainly wouldn't avoid adding recoil for fear of parts wearing out. ripping off arcade owners with high price replacement parts is Sega's business.

I have a large collection of arcade recoil guns including both the motor and solenoid kind. IMO, you're better off with a solenoid for home use if you plan to use it for multiple games. You can use a continuous duty solenoid for both semi and full auto. The ones with a motor only feel good for full auto.
 
That's not accurate. Lots of full auto arcade shooters have a recoil mechanism
I didn't say that they don't have them, I said that it shortens the life span using them for that function.

Having worked in an arcade in the early 2000s I can tell you that the T2/Revolution X guns solenoid mechanism were broken ALL THE TIME. We'd replace it and it'd be toast again in a matter of weeks. A lot of time we had to disable that functionality because the metal bracket that it would bang against would be so malformed or cracked that it couldn't be bent back or re-welded and the owner would get tired of buying more replacement parts.
 
My T2 and Gen X guns do use a particularly strong solenoid so what you said doesn't surprise me at all, especially as many arcade owners did a poor job of basic maintenance (like oiling the pistons). It's not really an issue in a commercial environment though. A solenoid is a relatively inexpensive consumable for a profit-making machine. They may not last forever but they last long enough to be financially worth it. Plus, they aren't just a cost. Recoil is a key draw for customers even to this day. It differentiates it from the home experience (which is more important now than ever).

I can still remember being amazed by Op Wolf and Op Thunderbolt when I was a kid and telling all my friends about the recoil. It's why I kept shoveling in coins.

These days you have Raw Thrills charging just $30 for a Terminator Salvation solenoid. That's nothing for a profitable machine in a prime location. Arcade owners should expect maintenance costs. Arcade guns get dropped, smashed, have the harnesses cut, get drinks spilled on them and chewing gum shoved into the sensor. A worn out solenoid is the least of their costs..

Sega have finally wised up on this issue after 10-15 years of making some very uninspiring shooting cabs while Namco ate their lunch. They weren't just lazy with full auto cabs either. None of their shooting cabs had recoil for a long time so nobody played them. Virtua Cop 3 didn't get a single home port. Anyway, I get that recoil matters to some more than others. I just know I'd much rather play with awesome recoil guns like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5Vdo_9FSx8&t=8s

and this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DatfpMFmIcc

I find it very odd that some people like to play these games with a mouse... Very odd... Like super insane odd... I don't get them at all.
 
"If you want to play other games (with just one or two buttons) on real hardware, the Chinese gun would be as plug in n play as the official type 2 pistols (once you added a sensor)"

Sorry - to clarify; the Aliexpress gun would be "plug and play" (with the sensor added) and with a JVS I/O setup and Type II gun sense board for Rambo or any other gun game except HOTD 4 and Ghost Squad which require the accelerometer for the kick-back or shaker features? Is that correct? It has the connections for a Type II sense board with any modifications assuming use with Rambo or other gun games (Naomi)?
Would it work with HOTD 4 and Ghost Squad if you simply don't require the kick-back or shaker features?

Lastly - the aliexpress gun would work with a JVS I/O board (and Type II gun sense board) and any MAME gun games?

Sounds like it could be a reasonable deal if used for Rambo or other Type II games without shaker or kick-back and only require a sensor which I already have from another older setup - if I am reading this correctly.

Thanks!
 
the Aliexpress gun would be "plug and play" (with the sensor added) and with a JVS I/O setup and Type II gun sense board
none of the guns are plug and play, pretty much anything you buy will require some custom harness work because they all use different connectors, even different cabs for the same game use different connectors.

JVS IO is irrelevant, the Gun Sense board works stand-alone with any analog input source, JVS or otherwise.

for Rambo or any other gun game except HOTD 4 and Ghost Squad which require the accelerometer
HOTD4 is AFAIK the only Type II IR game that uses an accelerometer

Ghost Squad requires 2 buttons in addition to the trigger, this gun only features 1 extra button.

nothing "requires" kick back or shaker, some games support them but you don't need them to run. Similarly you don't need the extra buttons either but you wont get very far in-game without them.

the aliexpress gun would work with a JVS I/O board (and Type II gun sense board) and any MAME gun games?
Getting these to run with MAME is a whole separate topic. but if you can get analog inputs to control guns in MAME then you can make these work.

If you're looking for these as a "Cheap" way to get into a Type II IR setup, the Sensor is the most expensive part. New ones sell for over $200 a piece. Honestly IMO the Ali Guns are only really interesting because they provide new plastic parts to replace whatever worn out ones you might already own.

Based on your questions I really Highly recommend you read at least part 1 of my write up so you understand what's involved.
 
The a
"If you want to play other games (with just one or two buttons) on real hardware, the Chinese gun would be as plug in n play as the official type 2 pistols (once you added a sensor)"

Sorry - to clarify; the Aliexpress gun would be "plug and play" (with the sensor added) and with a JVS I/O setup and Type II gun sense board for Rambo or any other gun game except HOTD 4 and Ghost Squad which require the accelerometer for the kick-back or shaker features? Is that correct? It has the connections for a Type II sense board with any modifications assuming use with Rambo or other gun games (Naomi)?
Would it work with HOTD 4 and Ghost Squad if you simply don't require the kick-back or shaker features?

Lastly - the aliexpress gun would work with a JVS I/O board (and Type II gun sense board) and any MAME gun games?

Sounds like it could be a reasonable deal if used for Rambo or other Type II games without shaker or kick-back and only require a sensor which I already have from another older setup - if I am reading this correctly.

Thanks!
When I say "as plug in and play as the official pistols", I don't mean that it's plug in n play. I meant it's equally difficult - i.e. Not plug in n play at all. Using the Chinese ones would be no more difficult though as it comes with the same hose. The only way to get plug in n play is buying the specific harness for the gun and all the right hardware. The hose is the gun cable. The harness connects the hose to the gun sense PCB.

The accelerometer has nothing to do with recoil. It's a motion sensor so games like Hod4 and HOD Scarlet Dawn know when you shake the gun to reload. It's a 1" x 1" pcb. It is a separate part to the knocker in Hod4 guns. The knocker just makes a knocking sound when you shake the gun. It is not a recoil mechanism or the accelerometer. it has no electronics at all. The Chinese had the right idea putting a recoil solenoid in there instead.

Older games like Confidential Mission and Jurassic Park just use a trigger button so a standard Sega pistol is used on all those cabs. starting with Hod3 Sega began designing a bunch of more interesting guns with different features. The only way to be able to play all Type 2 games with one gun would be to buy one with all the features. If it were available to buy separately, the Hod Scarlet Dawn gun would be the best option. It has a trigger, grenade button, weapon change lever and an accelerometer. Plus, it works as a pistol or a rifle. It also has recoil. But... nowhere seems to sell them yet....

I would highly recommend reading through all of Twistedsymphony's very helpful guide before buying anything. If you are looking for plug in n play or economy, I'd advise giving Type 2 guns a miss entirely. I'm only going through this process because I am a light gun genre fanatic. I bought and America's Army cab just to get a USB2Gun board. I got a bunch of positional guns and this Type 2 set up so I can play every shooting game with the right type of gun. I don't think any of this is worth the time or money unless you are either a fanatic like me or someone who really, really loves Sega arcade shooters.
 
Does the pinout for the 9 pin output of the BD gun sense board go from top to bottom or bottom to top in your write-up?
on the gun sense board pin 1 of every connector is the one closest to the top of the photo.
I just looked at the pics again and on the led input on the gun sense board, the pic shows it bottom to top instead of top to bottom. Is this because the photo was taken before you realized the led input on the board was in reverse order to the led modules? Or is red meant to be at the bottom and white at the top?
 
I just looked at the pics again and on the led input on the gun sense board, the pic shows it bottom to top instead of top to bottom.
what are you talking about?
old_gun_sense-1200x900.jpg
 
I just looked at the pics again and on the led input on the gun sense board, the pic shows it bottom to top instead of top to bottom.
what are you talking about?
old_gun_sense-1200x900.jpg
Your photo at the top of this page shows the led input (to the gun sense board) the wrong way if pin 1 is meant to be at the top:

http://solid-orange.com/1670

You show the opposite order in your pic on page 2 of this thread so I assume one is an old pic. I'm a little paranoid about getting the wrong order as a bunch of people describe frying their boards like that.
 
You show the opposite order in your pic on page 2 of this thread so I assume one is an old pic. I'm a little paranoid about getting the wrong order as a bunch of people describe frying their boards like that.
If you're talking about the header picture it's just a picture of the board when I first took it out of the box. Whoever had owned it before me had plugged in the wrong end of the cable. which doesn't matter because in doing so it still reverses the order of the pins on the other side, it just doesn't mach the original pin coloring.

rule #1 of wiring is you NEVER trust the wire colors and always confirm from the pinout or with a multi-meter.

wire colors are only there to help you tell the wires apart in a bundle and give you a starting point when confirming the other end with a multi-meter. many MANY OEM harnesses don't even follow their own wiring standard from the manual or even consistently in manufacturing.

for all I know that backwards LED cable on the gun sense board was plugged in wrong from the factory and no one ever corrected it.

I've changed the title image to a picture from my Gun Pedestal with correct wiring color if that eases your anxiety.
 
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