Shooting Gallery: Sega Type-II IR on a 108" front projection setup.

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    • Have already done research and there’s no way on earth to get line of sight tracking from a gyro,accel,compass setup without adding something else. The noise from the sensor is far far to high even with a filter.

      A 9dof IMU usually refers to a chip that has a 3 axis accelerometer, 3 axis gyro and a 3 axis compass. You can buy them for things like arduinos, and I’ve had a good go with them. You can get pose fairly accurate but not positional displacement (moving the gun in the x, y or z direction).

      If I remember correctly the gun doesn’t have a solenoid but a vibration motor, it’s pretty feeble so probably doesn’t require that massive board to power it.
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    • youtube.com/watch?v=fynnsJb5wZg&t=124s

      If you look at this video at 1:56 it does sort of look like there is a laser that goes off the bottom of the screen, so I'm more inclined to side with you on this one. Questions i've got though:

      - I've seen the ends are completely covered - how are they getting a laser out of the gun?
      - Maybe the STEM base is a camera?
      - The laser comes up as green on the camera, IR lasers should come up as red?
      - Surely they wouldn't use a laser which a small child could stare at and hurt their eyes?

      Edit:

      I think the game just projects that green dot, as it doesn't look like a laser - it wouldn't trail like that I don't think.
      I think the projector is also just not aligned very well, so when he gets close to the bottom it starts to project the green dot onto slightly below the screen.
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    • No, there's 9.

      You have X, Y, Z and each of those can rotate in three directions. I saw a 9 axis CNC machine once. It was crazy watching it work. An arcade gun isn't a CNC machine obviously but you'd still have at least 7 axis. I.e. X, Y, Z, Forward rotation, side rotation plus tilt in two directions. I'm not even sure if that would be enough. You'd probably want separate rotation axis for aiming and moving the position. I.e. Because you can rotate the gun without changing where you are aiming.

      Ah, I just gave myself a headache thinking about it.... I'm looking at my CNC machine and trying to picture the spindle as the gun and the table as the screen. OK, that made it worse...

      If the players position never moved then you could get away with less but if you wanted to retain perfect line of site in an arcade environment with different size players standing in different positions, you'd want at least 7 or 8 axis. I suspect they use an IR laser for position corrections to get away with using 6 axis.

      A Wii remote an a PS Move controller have both accelerometers and gyros and it's certainly not enough to maintain line of sight accuracy. Obviously, we're assuming the Tomb Raider guns actually do work perfectly which is not a given. It's time to take my kid to the arcade for some daddy time so I can investigate.
    • there are only 6 axis
      linear motion along x y and z
      rotational motion along x y and z

      anyone that sold a cnc as having more than 6 axis was doing so as a marketing gimmick. without any basis in reality
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    • Just Google "9 axis cnc machine". I'm not making it up. There are plenty and they are most definitely not just a gimmick. They are serious industrial machines from leading brands with sound logic for existing (I.e. Doing more with less set-ups) . For example:

      youtube.com/watch?v=gr3RM8yCfUg

      And

      youtube.com/watch?v=sPTYqn-EbAA

      And

      youtube.com/watch?v=EziLkDc8kHg

      They have 10 and 11 axis machines too.
    • I know you're not making it up. I've worked in manufacturing for 16 years... but you still don't understand the concept.

      for a single object you only have 6 axis that it can move in. that's it. those machines are called 9, 10, 11 axis because there are multiple objects and they're just adding up the total number of moving axis among all the objects.

      so they have one 5 axis machine head plus a 4 axis fixture and the market it as a 9 axis machine.

      it's like if you bought a dog and then went around telling everyone you now have 6 legs.

      we're talking about tracking a single object in 3D space... there are only 6axis
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    • I do understand (building cnc machines is a hobby of mine) I'm just not explaining myself very well obviously ...

      Just like with CNC machines, there's multiple components to light gun accuracy. It's the gun and the screen and the player's limbs. The current 6 axis (accelerometer / gyro) controllers are not able to maintain line of site accuracy because they only track it from one position and have no reference to where the screen is. They can do OK for a short while but quickly drift from a build up of errors.

      Also, a gun is not a perfectly symmetrical sphere with the accelerometer and gyro perfectly positioned in the center. Different parts of the gun will move and rotate at different rates. you can turn it keeping the grip still or rotate the grip keeping the iron site aimed at the same spot with different results.

      Having extra axis does not mean inventing a new type of motion. It means tracking it from multiple points.

      Either way, You need more data. I.e you need to know, not just where and how you've moved the gun but also where it is in relation to the screen. I think this is why they're using the laser pointer. I.e. As a mechanism for knowing when you are pointing at the screen and providing an accurate starting point.
    • an object doesn't need to be a sphere to have 6 axis.

      the screen doesn't move so it has 0 axis of movement and we're not tracking player limbs only the gun's position and orientation related to the screen.

      linear z position = height of the gun
      linear y position = normal distance from gun to screen
      linear x position = normal distance left or right from the screen
      rotational z position = angle left or right the gun is pointed
      rotational y position = angle up or down the gun is pointed
      rotational x position = how far the gun is twisted along the barrel

      what additional axis are you counting?
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    • It's not the screen that moves, it's the players position in relation to it . You need more data for absolute positioning. That's a separate point to adding additional axis.

      If the accelerometer and the gyro were stacked perfectly on top of each other in the center of a spherical object, you could rotate it in any direction without moving the X, Y and Z axis. If the point of measurement for the accelerometer and gyro is not perfectly centered, as it wouldn't be with a gun, rotating it would also cause linear movement and at different rates at the grip to what you'd see at that barrel end.

      Adding extra axis would specifically mean installing an extra gyro and / or accelerometer to provide additional data to help interpret how the motion effects aim better. E.g., one in the barrel end and one in the grip.

      Let me ask you this, do you think it's possible to maintain perfect line of site accuracy with just a 3 axis accelerometer and and a gyro?
    • Zebra wrote:

      Let me ask you this, do you think it's possible to maintain perfect line of site accuracy with just a 3 axis accelerometer and and a gyro?
      If it were a 3-axis gyro and if both the gyro and 3-axis accelerometer had perfectly accurate output then yes, absolutely because that would give you all 6 axis for perfect positioning and orientation of the gun in 3D space.

      the only reason that wouldn't work is because the technology is still kind of shit and not very accurate.
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    • That is certainly true. It's OK at tracking relative motion but accurate aiming is something else. All the ones I have used start to drift fairly quickly.

      I'm interested to see what's inside those guns to see their approach to solving it.

      What type of manufacturing do you work in if you don't mind me asking?
    • Zebra wrote:

      What type of manufacturing do you work in if you don't mind me asking?
      I have a degree in mechanical engineering and write engineering software for an Aerospace parts manufacturer. We mostly make stuff that moves: roller bearings, rod ends, links, engine mounts, landing gear parts, etc. If it flies it probably has our parts in it.
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    • twistedsymphony wrote:

      Zebra wrote:

      What type of manufacturing do you work in if you don't mind me asking?
      I have a degree in mechanical engineering and write engineering software for an Aerospace parts manufacturer. We mostly make stuff that moves: roller bearings, rod ends, links, engine mounts, landing gear parts, etc. If it flies it probably has our parts in it.
      Nice. That's a fascinating field (at least it is to me).
    • Also just as a reminder: this machine definately doesn't use a laser. The end of the gun is sealed, It doesn't speak of a camera or laser at all in the parts description, and lasers would be far too dangerous to use in an arcade with children running about.
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    • They're completely different technologies
      LED is a Light Emitting Diode and even single color LEDs actually output a fairly wide spectrum of light (see my light spectrometer graphs earlier in this thread.)

      LASER is Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation and basically works at an atomic level to produce a stream of electrons vibrating at a VERY specific frequency.

      Laser can fuck you up, but LEDs are no more dangerous than a light bulb
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    • How does the JVS control board connect to a Lindbergh system (or other PC-based arcades)?

      I can see what looks like a USB connector but I read that JVS uses completely different protocols and connections to a regular PC USB port.

      Is there a JVS PCI express card IO port? or some kind of adapter to convert JVS USB to PC usb?

      I am trying to find out if it's possible to connect my type 2 guns to my PC via a JVS control board for games that used them in the arcade and were PC based.

      I can get the type 2 guns working with Operation Ghost, Golden Gun, Hod4 and Transformers etc but only with Demul Shooter and only if they output as a mouse.
    • Zebra wrote:

      How does the JVS control board connect to a Lindbergh system (or other PC-based arcades)?
      typically there is a port mounted in one of the card slots for use with JVS

      sometimes this is a PCI card, other times it's a small PCB wit a wire harness that plugs into the mobo's serial port header.

      both TTX and Lindbergh also have dip-switches integrated into this and sometimes some other functions like a reset button or status LED.
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