SEGV echo chan ❤️

    This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

    • To share my thoughts regarding RGB trimpots, and this isn't strictly related to your device, just thinking out loud with like minded people to gain insight and ideas etc...

      Personally I don't have preference to a triple gang pot due to intolerances as you have mentioned. Yes it's convenient but the trade-off is an imperfect colour balance which is significant.

      I'm currently 'settling' on 3 x separate pots. The benefit being obvious, perfect control and the ability to cater to practically any output, be it lower or higher than 'average'. Yes a vast majority of arcade boards hover around a similar output, however there are exceptions, some very old boards have a weaker signal for example. The disadvantage as you point out, is the 'difficulty' of use and obtaining an even output. These factors are perhaps counteracted by the following:

      - If 'most' arcade boards have a similar output, then the pots need only be set once and forgotten about. For boards that are out of the normal range, at least you have the means to adjust accordingly.

      - Quite trivial to use a multimeter to match the 3 pots evenly. This can be performed prior to sale, so the end user in most cases need not worry about it.

      A low tolerance fixed resistor is a great compromise between the above two methods, with the drawback that adjustment, if needed, may not be readily available.

      One area I'd like to explore is digital potentiometers, controlled by tactile switches. I think having control over all 3 channels via a single set of switches may be quite convenient, but then I think sometimes I prefer the feel of analogue adjustment.

      Once again, just chewing the fat to gain a different perspective, not stating that you need to change how you do things. :)
    • I have some initial thoughts after spending a few hours with this device. I think this needs to be said as at least one of these things can be damaging.
      1. The size of the finger side of the board does not fit snug which allows a user to easily misalign the connector (The New Versus City started complaining when this happened.)
      2. The drift on the colors is outstanding. I can never get a white balance that lasts. For me, it was the blue that kept drifting. It was getting either way to amplified or too atenuated. (I never got this by tapping RGB and using a VGA distribution amp.)
      3. The sound of the audio output sounds compressed as if you are supposed to hear everything at the same loudness. I don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing, but I am curious as to know how this adds value when most would just use resistors, and a single RCA female jack, connect that to a ground loop isolator for cheap, and STILL turn down the volume so that voices can be heard.
      4. The product does not work well with long cable runs because the OSSC I was using was freaking out trying to lock on to sync, but acted normal when I switched to a short cable and a distribution amp.
      I think there is plenty of room for improvement and lots of potential to be had. If there are things that you we should be doing with this product, please let us know...

      I await tesing results with the CPS3 and other boards.
    • TechnicalMonkey wrote:

      I have some initial thoughts after spending a few hours with this device. I think this needs to be said as at least one of these things can be damaging.
      1. The size of the finger side of the board does not fit snug which allows a user to easily misalign the connector (The New Versus City started complaining when this happened.)
      2. The drift on the colors is outstanding. I can never get a white balance that lasts. For me, it was the blue that kept drifting. It was getting either way to amplified or too atenuated. (I never got this by tapping RGB and using a VGA distribution amp.)
      3. The sound of the audio output sounds compressed as if you are supposed to hear everything at the same loudness. I don't know if this is a good thing or bad thing, but I am curious as to know how this adds value when most would just use resistors, and a single RCA female jack, connect that to a ground loop isolator for cheap, and STILL turn down the volume so that voices can be heard.
      4. The product does not work well with long cable runs because the OSSC I was using was freaking out trying to lock on to sync, but acted normal when I switched to a short cable and a distribution amp.
      I think there is plenty of room for improvement and lots of potential to be had. If there are things that you we should be doing with this product, please let us know...

      I await tesing results with the CPS3 and other boards.
      I'm sorry to hear about your technical difficulties.

      1. Our board could be wider, but it's well within the range of other JAMMA boards out there. Even when we try we can't misalign the JAMMA pins. ?( Potential clients can judge for themselves if they think it's an issue:



      2. Our video circuitry is extremely simple, it's an op amp and a precision resistor. There is no room for color balance drift in the design, and I assure you that in our lab we don't get any drift. Potentially there is something else about your capture chain that is introducing the color balance issue. If you're serious about troubleshooting this send me a note, we'll see if we can diagnose the problem.

      3. It's not correct to say the Hammond "makes everything the same loudness". A good transformer is all about having the output preserving the same balance the same as the input, so it doesn't change the balance. I believe you when you say things sounded compressed, but I would bet that the actual game audio truly just sounds that way. Many arcade games do not have the best sound, and will continue to sound exactly the same when they pass through the echo chan. A nice FM soundtrack or something else that makes good use of bass or the higher range is needed to tell the difference the Hammond makes.

      Which game did you think had poor audio btw? Did you load up MAME for comparison? I caught the stream and thought AoF and 3rd Strike sounded great.

      4. Long cables are notorious for adding noise and this will happen no matter what splitter you are using. If your cable is so long the sync signal is getting weak, it is definitely degrading the RGB also. If you're using an OSSC and need a long cable, you could digitize using a short cable and then running a long HDMI cable to your capture setup.

      At the end of the day signal splitting and long signal transmission are different problems that require different tools for the job. If you need long cables and care about quality, you really should pick up a Video Extender cable as they are specifically designed for that purpose. You can even run audio over the same cable. Something like this for example:

      dx.com/p/utp-vga-audio-video-extender-black-41237




      Frank_fjs wrote:

      To share my thoughts regarding RGB trimpots, and this isn't strictly related to your device, just thinking out loud with like minded people to gain insight and ideas etc...

      Personally I don't have preference to a triple gang pot due to intolerances as you have mentioned. Yes it's convenient but the trade-off is an imperfect colour balance which is significant.

      I'm currently 'settling' on 3 x separate pots. The benefit being obvious, perfect control and the ability to cater to practically any output, be it lower or higher than 'average'. Yes a vast majority of arcade boards hover around a similar output, however there are exceptions, some very old boards have a weaker signal for example. The disadvantage as you point out, is the 'difficulty' of use and obtaining an even output. These factors are perhaps counteracted by the following:

      - If 'most' arcade boards have a similar output, then the pots need only be set once and forgotten about. For boards that are out of the normal range, at least you have the means to adjust accordingly.

      - Quite trivial to use a multimeter to match the 3 pots evenly. This can be performed prior to sale, so the end user in most cases need not worry about it.

      A low tolerance fixed resistor is a great compromise between the above two methods, with the drawback that adjustment, if needed, may not be readily available.

      One area I'd like to explore is digital potentiometers, controlled by tactile switches. I think having control over all 3 channels via a single set of switches may be quite convenient, but then I think sometimes I prefer the feel of analogue adjustment.

      Once again, just chewing the fat to gain a different perspective, not stating that you need to change how you do things. :)
      I would be really interested to know of any boards that specifically have weird video voltages. If you know of any, please share. In our testing, we are confident everything Raizing, Toaplan, Cave, Psikyo, Neo-Geo, F3, CPS1/2/3, Supernova etc. will work perfectly.
    • SEGV wrote:

      1. Our board could be wider, but it's well within the range of other JAMMA boards out there. Even when we try we can't misalign the JAMMA pins. Potential clients can judge for themselves if they think it's an issue:
      From the photo it would appear your board edge will be a problem with some JAMMA harnesses. They are not all created equally.

      I would recommend PCB width 114.30mm, pads 2.35x8.00mm

      :)
    • I wanted to add this to the earlier post, but it had slipped my mind. The pictures that was put up on Twitter by @Sabin shows something that is also very important. During testing I had finally setup the echo-chan to go to the OSSC via a distribution amp since the capture setup was far from the cabinet to use a 6' VGA cable. The result was that the the green and red signals were too overdriven for the OSSC to attenuate, so there was clipping in the highlights. I hope this is something that you can look into. I am curious what you guys have found in your in-house testing.
    • I'd be interested in purchasing one of these at a lower price point - would you consider offering one without the input capture/overlay feature?

      Moreover, I'd say that these updates to the existing revision would make it a buy for me:

      1) Update pad spacing on JAMMA edge
      2) Key JAMMA edge
      3) Add mounting points for PCB legs (not critical, but would be nice)
      4) Jumpers to support MVS PCBs

      Not super important for me, but how does the input capture handle PCBs that use buttons 4-6 via an auxiliary ("kick") harness?

      Has there been any testing done using long cable runs and/or splitters / distribution amps for VGA? Sounds like this may have not happened; would be good to do this as streamers and hobbyists with crazy setups usually need to do long cable runs. On this note, I realize that this is not something that you (SEGV) can or should solve for in the product, but it would be helpful to know what guidance to give end-users and setting expectations.
    • kazuo wrote:


      Not super important for me, but how does the input capture handle PCBs that use buttons 4-6 via an auxiliary ("kick") harness?

      Has there been any testing done using long cable runs and/or splitters / distribution amps for VGA? Sounds like this may have not happened; would be good to do this as streamers and hobbyists with crazy setups usually need to do long cable runs. On this note, I realize that this is not something that you (SEGV) can or should solve for in the product, but it would be helpful to know what guidance to give end-users and setting expectations.
      Buttons 4 & 5 are handled if they are passed over JAMMA. So this works great for Neo-Geo games, for example. Kick harnesses are not supported at this time, though the micro-controller is fully programmable so there's nothing stopping an ambitious user from expanding the functionality.

      We tested using long D-SUB cables, which sometimes worked depending on the peculiarities of the sync signal of the particular hardware. We also tested with video extender cables as mentioned a few posts up, which worked consistently. If you have an OSSC I'd recommend digitizing close to the source and then running a long HDMI cable to your capture setup. Otherwise I recommend picking up some video extender cables. However some games may work without that.
    • I had a few hours this weekend to play with this adapter in my setup. I'd echo what other people said about the jamma connector, if you slide it in off center it comes super close to touching the wrong pins. :( Other than that the video quality is pristine, I tested about 4 different boards so far (echo chan -> ossc -> datapath e1s capture card) and the video quality is pure and I never saw any color drifting or whatever was described earlier. I also did some audio comparisons with MAME and didn't detect any issues (although I'm no audiophile). I'm going to do some more captures this week with a variety of boards.
    • SEGV wrote:

      Buttons 4 & 5 are handled if they are passed over JAMMA. So this works great for Neo-Geo games, for example. Kick harnesses are not supported at this time, though the micro-controller is fully programmable so there's nothing stopping an ambitious user from expanding the functionality.
      Are you planning on adding this, or just leaving it as an exercise for an ambitious user? My bias is towards fighting games, I would consider no kick harness support a deal breaker, just about everything I run uses one.

      Aside from my own bias though, I think you'll find that fighting games are the best market for people really caring about showing inputs during a stream, since that's the genre most dependent on showcasing movement and button combinations.
    • Aurich wrote:

      SEGV wrote:

      Buttons 4 & 5 are handled if they are passed over JAMMA. So this works great for Neo-Geo games, for example. Kick harnesses are not supported at this time, though the micro-controller is fully programmable so there's nothing stopping an ambitious user from expanding the functionality.
      Are you planning on adding this, or just leaving it as an exercise for an ambitious user? My bias is towards fighting games, I would consider no kick harness support a deal breaker, just about everything I run uses one.
      Aside from my own bias though, I think you'll find that fighting games are the best market for people really caring about showing inputs during a stream, since that's the genre most dependent on showcasing movement and button combinations.
      It's definitely something we are considering. What makes it tricky is that there are many different kick harnesses out there.

      What would the needs of the fighting game community be? Strictly CPS2? Would you be happy with just some screw terminals and user-wiring required?
    • @SEGV if Fighting games are the target, I would recommend centering it around the 9/10-pin connector style as you can cover the majority of the games, and the ones that don't can easily be converted with simple adapters.

      I would still populate the main finger for games that might still use 4 or 5 buttons from that, and use jumpers to choose which mode to put it in.

      I'm just throwing in ideas, anyone else has anything to add?
    • @kazuo I would like the idea, but keep in mind that the connector on CPS2/3/ZN2-Capcom/etc. is quite long, and would take up precious PCB real-estate.

      @SEGV I am open to any suggestions you may have. I have an idea that I may try to do this week to thoroughly test show the testing methodology of the setup, and in sync results. I was accompanied by @Sabin while I was testing his echo-chan on the cabinet. The pictures he posted on Twitter was during the testing I did that night, so I know I wasn't going crazy. I would balance the white by adjusting blue, and it would do slowly start attenuating and amplifying the blue signal. I would like to conclude whether or not it is user error.
    • Hey guys!

      Just chiming in to say that we have sold the last of our stock from this batch. We do not have plans to run a second batch, but if we do it will certainly incorporate the changes suggested about the fingerboard width and kick harness support.

      A huge thanks from everyone at SEGV for your feedback and support <3