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Zebra

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Please can someone explain the benefits of flash carts like the Darksoft MVS multi or the CPS-2 multi over a regular multi-game cart?

I'm not criticizing the approach. I think it is fantastic that Darksoft (and others) are creating ways for us to experience rare games on original hardware. I just don't understand why it is better to flash one game at a time into rom instead of having enough memory for all the games?

In the 80's and early 90's, the cost of rom and other types of memory was high and most of the cheaper alternatives were slow but things are different now. There are a number of options for fast high speed storage. Those 161 in 1 MVS carts show how it is possible to make carts with a lot of games for very little money.

It's unfortunate that someone decided to fill those MVS 161 in 1 carts with a bunch of bootlegs that nobody cares about and 20 too many King of Fighters versions but, it shows that it wouldn't be too hard or expensive for someone to create a multi-cart with every official Neo Geo game and another with every CPS2 game etc. I was kinda hoping that someone would have found a way to hack one of the 161 in 1 carts to replace bootlegs with the genuine missing titles like Fatal Fury Special and Art of Fighting 3.

So, what is the reason for flashing one game at a time when the main purpose of these flash carts is to allow people to play the entire library of a platform on real hardware?

Is there a limitation with the Neo Geo and CPS hardware that would prevent it ever being possible to load games straight from a hard drive or from RAM, or from a Network like the Naomi / Raspberry PI set-ups?
 
Legalities. Reputable people like the Darksoft team don't won't to be facing copyright infringement by distributing products with illegal content. China is a different story, they can pretty much pirate anything without consequence.

One benefit of an SD card approach is the end user can load whatever they want, with the Chinese multi carts you're stuck with whatever they give you.
 
Is there a limitation with the Neo Geo and CPS hardware that would prevent it ever being possible to load games straight from a hard drive or from RAM, or from a Network like the Naomi / Raspberry PI set-ups?
The limitation is the way in which the hardware loads the ROMs, my understanding is the CPS multi and MVS flashcart is effectively reprogramming ROMs on demand which the hardware would then read as per an original cart or romset. The comparison to the Naomi isn't really fair as the netboot feature is part of the naomi hardware (well netdimm), something in fact many would like to do away with and replace with a Naomi multicart (ahem darksoft).
 
Please can someone explain the benefits of flash carts like the Darksoft MVS multi or the CPS-2 multi over a regular multi-game cart?
Darksoft MVS is capable of simulating every cartridge type, where as the 161 multi cart simply cannot. Not even in the same realm of comparison.

I'm not aware of any other solution for CPS2.
I just don't understand why it is better to flash one game at a time into rom instead of having enough memory for all the games?
Compatible NOR Flash is actually rather expensive now-a-days
There are a number of options for fast high speed storage. Those 161 in 1 MVS carts show how it is possible to make carts with a lot of games for very little money.
Feel free to give some examples of acceptable options as well as how it would be engineered. The 161 neogeo carts are built using recycled Fujitsu SOP70 flash chips that were used in gambling machines, which are an obsolete part and no longer manufactured. We don't have the same options as Chinese manufactures who buy chips by the kilogram.

As you have noted the 161 carts don't have the entire library with many duplicates, but it is not as simple as just 'adding the rom'. Many carts/games require specific logic and co-processors to be present to simulate the cartridge, which simple is not possible with the 161.
So, what is the reason for flashing one game at a time when the main purpose of these flash carts is to allow people to play the entire library of a platform on real hardware?
I cannot speak for Darksoft, but in my opinion it is just a function of design based on the collector scene. Most people here like their arcade machines to boot up like an original machine does, not to a menu asking you to select a game. But your question is a bit confusing as you're asking about the DS Neogeo and DS CPS2, which both function rather differently from each other.
Is there a limitation with the Neo Geo and CPS hardware that would prevent it ever being possible to load games straight from a hard drive or from RAM, or from a Network like the Naomi / Raspberry PI set-ups?
For example with the NAOMI, it loads games from a single data bus / end point -- but if you compare that to NG or CPS2, there is a data bus for each cpu program, sound, sprite graphics, tile graphics, etc. They are each independent circuits, it would have to be designed to use a SRAM chip for each bus (super limited options on compatible parts for this now, even more expensive than nor flash)
 
Please can someone explain the benefits of flash carts like the Darksoft MVS multi or the CPS-2 multi over a regular multi-game cart?
Darksoft MVS is capable of simulating every cartridge type, where as the 161 multi cart simply cannot. Not even in the same realm of comparison.
I'm not aware of any other solution for CPS2.
there is this Chinese monstrosity... 14 in 1 or something from memory
https://xinglisoftware.en.made-in-china.com/product/EblJTmCyHHhs/China-Cps2-Arcade-Game.html
 
Please can someone explain the benefits of flash carts like the Darksoft MVS multi or the CPS-2 multi over a regular multi-game cart?
Darksoft MVS is capable of simulating every cartridge type, where as the 161 multi cart simply cannot. Not even in the same realm of comparison.I'm not aware of any other solution for CPS2.
there is this Chinese monstrosity... 14 in 1 or something from memoryhttps://xinglisoftware.en.made-in-china.com/product/EblJTmCyHHhs/China-Cps2-Arcade-Game.html
What about this monstrosity ?
 
yup, same thing basically for CPS1 :)
that link shows the game list as well
 
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I've got the CPS1 monstrosity, truth be told, it works great and has done for a few years now. Nice onscreen menu, instant loading, and a handful of non-hacked games that run flawlessly. It has its problems but represented great value for money to me, being able to play games that cost absurd money now.
 
I understand that the currently available multi carts are not as good because of poor game choices while the flash carts made by Darksoft and others allow users to use almost any game they want.

The part I am asking about is the process of flashing one game at a time vs loading all the games on the SD card or hard drive into high speed memory at once.

For example, I read about a multi game cart that loads all it's games into RAM when switched on. Kinda like how a PC loads from a hard drive to RAM. Neo Geo games were considered huge (in terms of memory) in their day but in today's terms, you could fit the entire library onto your average RAM stick.

I guess I don't have a great understanding of how the Neo Geo multi carts change from one game to another. I thought that instead of flashing one at a time, the cart works more like a very large rom cart with enough space for all the games vs a flash cart where there is enough rom space for one game at a time. Is this not correct?

Or, do the Chinese Neo Geo multi carts work more like the Darksoft product except without the user being able to change what's on the SD card?
 
do the Chinese Neo Geo multi carts work more like the Darksoft product except without the user being able to change what's on the SD card?
Your understanding of how memory works in these systems is incorrect.

SD card is storage, but images need to be transferred to work RAM for processing.
This is why you have a loading time, where the image is moved.

The 161 is essentially nothing but RAM (actually ROM because its not rewritable) to the Neo-Geo motherboard.
Nothing needs to be expanded/loaded/moved into some kind of RAM work space, it's already 100% accessible/addressable to the CPU as-is.

Darksoft could easily release a multi just like the 161, only that would not only be illegal but users wouldn't be able to load their own ROMs/patches/homebrew/etc.
To me, it more important that we have SD storage to customize our ROMs, even IF that comes at the performance hit of expanding/loading the ROMs into RAM.
The legality of selling blank SD based devices is just icing on the otherwise ban piracy cake. :)
 
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I am not suggesting that flash carts be sold with pre-loaded content. We all understand the legal issues on this topic.

If the Neo Geo multi carts work as you described then they are exactly what I thought. I.e. Very large rom (or equivalent) carts with all the games stored in high speed memory.

Imagine one of the 161 in 1 carts sold blank with a method for users to add their own content and that these blank carts had enough high speed memory for the whole catalog for each platform so users could reduce or eliminate loading times when changing from one game to another.

For some reason, I feel the need to repeat, I am not asking why Darksoft doesn't include content with his carts.

I am only asking why the multi game flash carts load content from an SD card and have enough rom for one game instead of a large (blank) cart with enough high speed memory for all the games.
 
Imagine one of the 161 in 1 carts sold blank with a method for users to add their own content
But that method would be a EPROM burner, and it wouldn't be easy for the average Joe to burn.

If you are not the average Joe, and DO have access to EPROM burners...
This supposed device is less interesting to you already, because you've had the ability to make conversions from cheaper MVS boards for years. ;)
Code:
Game Name	PROG Board	CHA Board
3 Count Bout	4096	42G-2
Aero Fighters 2	GSC	256
Aero Fighters 3	BK1	256
Aggressors: DK	TOP	256B
AlphaM2/ASO II:	42G	42G
Andro Dunos	16	42G-1
Art of Fighting	4096	42G-1
Art of F2	GSC	256
Art of F3	BK1	256
Bang Bead	BK1	FIO
Baseball Stars	EP	32
Baseball S2	42G-1	42G-1
Blazing Star	BK1	512Y
Blue's Journey	8M42	8M
Breakers	BK1	256B
BreakersRevenge	BK1	512Y
Burning Fight	42G	42G
Bust-A-Move/PB	TOP	256
Bust-A-MoveEX	BK1	256
Captain Tomaday	BK1	256
Chibi Quiz	BK1	256
Crossed Swords	42G-1	42G-1
Cyber-Lip	EP	32
Double Dragon	TOP	256
Eight Man	42G-1	42G-1
Fatal Fury	42G-1	42G-1
Fatal Fury 2	G2	42G-1
Fatal Fury S	GSC	42G-3B
Fatal Fury 3	BK1	256
Fight Fever	GSC	256B
Flip Shot	BK1	256
Football Frenzy	42G-1	42G-1
Galaxy Fight	TOP	256
Ganryu / Mus	BK1	FIO
Garou: MotW	LBA	FIO
Ghost Lop	GSC	256
Ghost Pilots	8M42	8M
Goal!    	BK1	256
Gururin	16	256
Irritating Maze	BK1	512Y
Kabuki Klash	BK1	256
KarnovFHD	GSC	256
King of F '94	TOP	256
King of F '95	BK1	256
King of F '96	BK1	256
King of F '97	BK1	512Y
King of F '98	SF1	512Y
King of F '99	LBA	FIO
King of F 2000	LBA	FIO
King of F 2001	BK2	FIO REV1.0
King of F 2002	BK2	FIO
King of F 2003	BK3S	FIO
KotM            42G-1	42G-1
KotM2   	16	42G-1
Kizuna Encount	TOP	256
Last Blade	BK1	512Y
Last Blade 2	BK1	512Y
Last Resort	42G-1	42G-1
League Bowling	HERO	32
Legend of SJ	42G-1	42G-1
Magical Drop 2	BK1	256B
Magical Drop 3	BK1	256
Magician Lord	EP	32
Mahjong Manyuki	42G-COM	42G-1
Mahjong Kyore	EP	32
Mahjong Minna	8MB	8M
Master of Syo	TOP	42G-3B
Matrimelee	BK2	FIO
Metal Slug	BK1	256
Metal Slug 2	BK1	512Y
Metal Slug X	EOP	512Y
Metal Slug 3	LBA	FIO
Metal Slug 4	BK2	FIO
Metal Slug 5	BK3S	FIO
Money PuzzleE	BK1	42G-3B
Mutation Nation	42G-1	42G-1
NAM 1975	NAM	32
Neo Bomberman	BK1	256
Neo Driftout	BK1	256B
Neo Geo Cup '98	BK1	512Y
Neo Mr. Do!	BK1	42G-3B
Neo Turf Master	BK1	256B
Nightmare itD	BK1	FIO
Ninja Combat	EP	32
Ninja Commando	42G-1	42G-1
Ninja Master's	BK1	256
Over Top	BK1	256
Panic Bomber	TOP	256
Pochi & Nyaa	BK2	FIO
Pop 'N Bounce	4096	42G-3B
Power Spikes 2	TOP	256
Prehistoric I2	BK1	FIO
Pulstar  	BK1	256
Puzzled/Joy Kid	EP	32
Puzzle de Pon!	4096	42G-2
Puzzle de Pon!R	4096	42G-2
Quest of Jong	GSC	256
Quiz Daisousa	42G	42G
Rage otD	BK2	FIO
Ragnagard	BK1	256
Real Bout Fatal Fury	BK1	256
Real Bout Fatal Fury Special	BK1	256B
Real Bout Fatal Fury 2	BK1	512Y
Riding Hero	HERO	32
Robo Army	42G-1	42G-1
Samurai Shodown	GSC	42G-3
Samurai Shodown 2	TOP	256
Samurai Shodown 3: Blades of Blood	BK1	256
Samurai Shodown 4: Amakusa's Revenge	BK1	256B
Samurai Shodown 5	BK2-R	FIO
Samurai Shodown 5 Special	BK2-S	FIO
Savage Reign	4096B	42G-3
Sengoku	42G	42G
Sengoku 2	4096	42G-2
Sengoku 3	BK1	FIO
Shock Troopers	BK1	256
Shock Troopers 2nd Squad	BK1	512Y
Soccer Brawl	42G-1	42G-1
Spinmaster / Miracle Adventure	GSC	256
Stakes Winner	BK1	42G-3B
Stakes Winner 2	BK1	256
Street Hoop / Dunk Dream	GSC	256
Strikers 1945 Plus	BK1	FIO
Super Baseball 2020	42G-1	42G-1
Super Dodge Ball	BK1	256B
Super Sidekicks	G2	42G-2
Super Sidekicks 2	TOP	256
Super Sidekicks 3	TOP	42G-3B
Super Sidekicks 4: The Ultimate 11	BK1	256
Super Spy, The	8MB	8M
SVC Chaos: SNK vs. Capcom	BK3-R	FIO
Tecmo World Soccer '96	BK1	256B
Thrash Rally	42G-COM	42G-1
Top Hunter	TOP	256B
Top Player's Golf	EP	32
Twinkle Star Sprites	BK1	256B
Viewpoint	G2	42G-1
Voltage Fighter Gowcaizer	BK1	42G-3B
Waku Waku 7	BK1	256B
Windjammers / Flying Power Disk	42G-1	42G-1
World Heroes	16	42G-1
World Heroes 2	4096B	42G-3
World Heroes 2 Jet	GSC	256
World Heroes Perfect	GSC	256
Zed Blade / Operation Ragnarok	GSC	256
Zupapa!	BK1	FIO
 
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For example, I read about a multi game cart that loads all it's games into RAM when switched on. Kinda like how a PC loads from a hard drive to RAM. Neo Geo games were considered huge (in terms of memory) in their day but in today's terms, you could fit the entire library onto your average RAM stick.
Let's apply the NEOGEO to your example here. "Why can't we use common DDR RAM?! It's fast and cheap!"

You need to understand how the NG hardware works, given its 20 years old. I'm not an expert on NG, but my understanding is that an average cartridge has 5 separate data buses; P, V, C, S, M. This is why there are so many connections on the cartridge. Each bus would require its own separate RAM chip, controller, bus arbitrator, and programming/loading interface. The cost of hardware would not be practical. Keep in mind when you describe a stick of ram as cheap, it is just bare memory chips on a pcb, not the rest of the circuit required to function (ie; motherboard).

If the Neo Geo multi carts work as you described then they are exactly what I thought. I.e. Very large rom (or equivalent) carts with all the games stored in high speed memory.

Imagine one of the 161 in 1 carts sold blank with a method for users to add their own content and that these blank carts had enough high speed memory for the whole catalog for each platform so users could reduce or eliminate loading times when changing from one game to another.
As mentioned in my last post, the 161 cart uses recycled Fujitsu flash chips (1gigabit or 128megabytes each).

3 for P (384MB)
5 for V (640MB)
16 for C (2GB)
1 for S
1 for M

Modern available part for 1gbit parallel nor flash, SL29GL01 is approx $12 USD each, and takes approx 280 seconds to erase. So we're looking at over $300 USD cost in parts just for NOR flash to store the crap list included with 161, and a programming cycle somewhere around 40-50 minutes to update. The entire NG library is much larger than this.
I am only asking why the multi game flash carts load content from an SD card and have enough rom for one game instead of a large (blank) cart with enough high speed memory for all the games.
So above I mention that 1gbit nor flash parts take a huge amount of time to erase, where as there are specialty NOR flash that is still manufactured with high speed erase times (under 1 second), but they are not available in large capacities.

Parallel NOR flash is becoming an obsolete technology. Parallel means a wire connected for each address and data line (ie; 48 or 56 wire connections per chip). Modern system designs use 2 or 4 wires (ie; I2C or SPI) interfaces instead of a parallel connection.
 
It's unfortunate that someone decided to fill those MVS 161 in 1 carts with a bunch of bootlegs that nobody cares about and 20 too many King of Fighters versions but, it shows that it wouldn't be too hard or expensive for someone to create a multi-cart with every official Neo Geo game
That's not a lapse in judgement it's an intentional "feature" to inflate the game list.

most of those bootlegs and clone games share the game graphics files

So lets say one of the KOF games is 64MB in size and 4MB is the game code while the remaining 60MB are the sprites, music and other "assets". You then have a bootleg version of that same game that uses the same asset data. So for that bootleg all you need to do is include the extra 4MB for the different game code and then point to the 60MB of asset data that's already on the cart from another game.

The result is that you can now say that your cart has 2 games instead of 1 and it only cost you a small amount of memory. Do this with 5 more bootlegs of the same game and you've still only added another 20MB of data but now you've got 7 games and it still isn't taking up as much space as 2 unique games.

Those bootlegs are just a marketing gimmic to sell a new cart with a larger number X-in-1 when really they've just cleverly re-arranged the data to shove additional variants of the same games on there.

But this goes to the next issue. The game data that are on these Chinese carts are sliced and diced and modified to work on their cheap cart hardware. It's impossible to know what's been done to them but it's not always the original game code and the cart hardware doesn't always work the same as the original cart hardware did.

To your original question of Whats the benefit? The Benefit is that carts like the MultiMVS and CPS2 Multi are designed to run the original unmodified game code (complete with encryption), and the multi cart simulates the original cartridge hardware as authentically as possible. So not only are you able to run exactly the games that you want, but those games are using the original and unmodified game code and the delivery of the game code to the main board is as close to the way the original carts worked as possible.

for those of us buying these carts, the additional cost of Darksoft Multi carts over the Chinese Xin1 carts are worth it for being able to run the original games on as close to original hardware as possible as opposed Chinese hacked and often buggy games that we can't change out.
 
If true, that is certainly a meaningful benefit with the Darksoft MVS cart. I didn't know that the games on the 161 in 1 carts used modified code that does not play the same as the original. For me, that would defeat the purpose of going to the trouble of playing on original hardware as the Neo Geo is so well emulated in Groovymame.

My understanding from watching the reviews is that (aside from the bootlegs), the games on the 161 carts played the same as the original because they were running on original hardware.

What sort of differences are we talking about with the modified code?

I used to have a super magicom and a double game doctor for my SNES and Genesis when I was a kid so I could copy carts onto 3.5" floppy disks. Each game took 2 minutes to load but once loaded, they played like the original. I am guessing that modern SD cards transfer data a lot faster. How long does it take to flash a new game with the Darksoft Neo Geo MVS cart and the CPS2 one?
 
It's all about choice.

A " All in one cart " will never make everyone happy! ( why can't i add this, play this )

The end user likes to add remove games. ( less hacks more puzzle etc )
Multi cart xxx in 1 are great ( and the hacks ) but always miss that one game.

You pay your money, you play the games.
 
For me the 161 in 1 was missing a lot of the games i actually used to play in the arcades and i wanted those games again.

Missing for me was Ninja Combat, Windjammers, World Heroes Perfect, King of the Monsters 2, Fatal Fury special and a few others

None of the carts have all the games, and no single cart had the combination i wanted
 
None of the carts have all the games, and no single cart had the combination i wanted
I felt the same way, and also even when the games I wanted to play had been included they were buggy beta versions.
Garou crashes on the 161 if you perform certain specials/combos because they used some beta/bootleg ROM.
 
Where did Ram Carts come into the question?

Flash Carts: a Cart where the game is stored in a Flash Chip ( I would put all of MVS,CP2, TatioF3 Multicarts here ) , these can be used for user code & development testing :)
MultiCart: Chinese carts that have normally basterdized copies of games crammed into it giving you 161-1, etc style cart, technically violating copyright laws as distributing game code.
Ram Carts: So, these are actually PRETTY old.... been around for awhile, Z64, Doctor64 are examples of these , Netdimm also falls into this category, game code is loaded into a Ram stick and game is played.

now... you could probbaly make a "Ram" cart for CPS2/MVS etc, however, like mentioned before, you would need a arbitrator for each bus, then talking to a master "memory" device.. but if two buses need memory at the same time ( not to say 3 buses ) your going to have some massive bottle necks, so in the end , its cheaper to just stick with flash chips, put the made CPU on hold/reset, disable bus access from the main board, reflash the chips, and then release control back to the main board.
 
I've got the CPS1 monstrosity, truth be told, it works great and has done for a few years now. Nice onscreen menu, instant loading, and a handful of non-hacked games that run flawlessly. It has its problems but represented great value for money to me, being able to play games that cost absurd money now.
I have the CPS2 version (18-in-1) and my experience with it mirrors that above. Solid game list (there are only a couple that I miss, and a couple I could do without.) There isn’t a paralyzingly number of titles to parse through, and for someone with only a single cab, it’s a quick and easy way to jump in a play a few different titles for 45mins without messing around with the hardware.
 
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