Minigun Supergun - An Open Source Supergun

[Frank_fjs]

It's design efficiency and design wisdom.

The only time TTL level sync presented itself as a requirement was in regards to the OSSC / F3. It made more sense to build an external option around that than to add complexity and cost to the main product for the sake of ensuring compatibility with a single use case.

Furthermore, the OSSC hardware hack wasn't available at the time the Minigun was being created so there was never any compelling reason to cater to TTL sync over the Mini DIN 8. Quite the opposite in fact, there was a need to maintain safety and adhere to standards rather than allow an end user the opportunity to feed TTL level sync through a scart video cable where safe levels were expected.



The above sync booster is an effective and easy way of enjoying F3 over an OSSC. As mentioned, at the time it was mandatory to utilise the VGA port of the OSSC in able to utilise TTL sync and besides this, for some it's a preferred option as opposed to hardware modding your OSSC.

Design flaw it is not.

 

[jassin000]

But for the minigun people argued (jassin was one of them ) that mini DIN 8 is what everyone uses, that's the standard etc so that was used instead.

I haven't backed down on that, I still say today EVERYONE should be using mini din 8.
The 9 pin approach is wrong because components NEVER belong in cables PERIOD!
Nope the device should ALWAYS contain any/all necessary hardware.

I need only point at the Gamecube console to show the extreme flaw in this cable+component logic.
#200$_component_cables

Furthermore, the OSSC hardware hack wasn't available at the time the Minigun was being created

I wondered that, and yea I did think you came first (so of course this wasn't an option at the time).

 

[Frank_fjs]

Re mini DIN 8, the point here is that part of the standard is 0.7vpp video levels. People assume and expect that. Enabling TTL sync is a breach of this standard and could inadvertently lead to damage.

It's not as severe with other console cable standards, such as Mega Drive 2 etc, as those cables typically have a series resistor in line with sync to bring it down to safe levels. They also utilise a separate pin, one for each signal (composite video which can be utilised as sync in an RGBS connection) and TTL sync.

 

[Arthrimus]

It's design efficiency and design wisdom.

The only time TTL level sync presented itself as a requirement was in regards to the OSSC / F3. It made more sense to build an external option around that than to add complexity and cost to the main product for the sake of ensuring compatibility with a single use case.

Furthermore, the OSSC hardware hack wasn't available at the time the Minigun was being created so there was never any compelling reason to cater to TTL sync over the Mini DIN 8. Quite the opposite in fact, there was a need to maintain safety and adhere to standards rather than allow an end user the opportunity to feed TTL level sync through a scart video cable where safe levels were expected.



The above sync booster is an effective and easy way of enjoying F3 over an OSSC. As mentioned, at the time it was mandatory to utilise the VGA port of the OSSC in able to utilise TTL sync and besides this, for some it's a preferred option as opposed to hardware modding your OSSC.

Design flaw it is not.

Any plans to do a sync booster tailored to the OSSC hack that is designed to fit in a Scart hood?

 

[Frank_fjs]

Not really any plans for it but most the work is already done via my scart adapter.

The way I run things is to leave both my scart adapter and VGA sync booster connected to my OSSC. Then I simply swap the mini din 8 cable between the two pending needs.

 

[jassin000]

The way I run things is to leave both my scart adapter and VGA sync booster connected to my OSSC.

Agreed, I like this approach myself.
IMO its the OSSC that needs augmentation, SCART port in 2020 plz mini din 8 or die.

 

[Arthrimus]

The way I run things is to leave both my scart adapter and VGA sync booster connected to my OSSC.

Agreed, I like this approach myself.IMO its the OSSC that needs augmentation, SCART port in 2020 plz mini din 8 or die.

Yeah the only problem with that is that the Mini Din 8 demands video output standards that none of the major consoles natively support. Almost every console requires some components in the cable so SCART will continue to be the most practical interface for RGB video, as much as people hate it.

 

[jassin000]

Yeah the only problem with that is that the Mini Din 8 demands video output standards that none of the major consoles natively support.

Thats why when I mod a console I put the components inside it, the video coming out of the console must always be 100% safe/usable to the host regardless of cable used.
The only console of mine that isn't true of is the PCEngine because I have a SSDS3 (and that fucking thing as much as I love loading CD games from SD card needs GD Genesis2 cable).

Components inside cables is WRONG!

 

[adgenet]

Components inside cables is WRONG!

I don't always agree with you, but this I have to agree with 5000%.

 

[Arthrimus]

Thats why when I mod a console I put the components inside it, the video coming out of the console must always be 100% safe/usable to the host regardless of cable used.The only console of mine that isn't true of is the PCEngine because I have a SSDS3 (and that fucking thing as much as I love loading CD games from SD card needs GD Genesis2 cable).

Components inside cables is WRONG!

I get that you feel that way, but your feelings on the issue don't change the reality that each console has it's own video output ecosystem designed by the manufacturer, and the cable design is usually a major part of that ecosystem. It's easy to make moral judgments about how things ought to be designed, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a legacy of hardware designs that have to be accommodated by projects like the OSSC.

Why don't you design your own revision of the OSSC that only supports MINI DIN 8 and see how many people want it?

 

[jassin000]

It's easy to make moral judgments about how things ought to be designed

No doubt, arm chair quarterbacking is easier than playing ball so point taken.
That being said I still don't feel I'm wrong, and again the strongest argument against components inside cables is the Gamecube.

The console cannot output YPbPr, it depends on the custom digital-2-analog chip only found in that outrageously expensive cable.
Compare this to other consoles of that same generation who got it right... Namely PS2 and Xbox
At the console level they both produce YPbPr, as it should be and as a result you can get component cables for less than 20$ (approx 100x cheaper than GC).

Was GC the worst Nintendo console? I guess that depends on if you consider the Virtual Boy to be a portable/handheld or a console.
All I used mind for was playing GBA, now that I have the Consolizer I sold that hunk of shit and its over priced cable.

Spoiler

• Metroid Prime = FPS trash its not a Metroid game
• The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker = 3D trash
• Super Mario Sunshine = Worst 3D Mario ever made
• Resident Evil 4 = Was good until it released on Wii with motion controls, now why would you play it?
• Super Smash Bros. Melee = Fuck Melee fans, I can use Ice Climbers in Tournament play if I want because they are in the GD game
• Paper Mario: The Thousand-Year Door = Meh Mario RPG was waaay better and came out what a decade prior?
• Luigi's Mansion = Ok GC you got 1
• Eternal Darkness = Meh
• F-Zero GX = OK GC you got 2 (but this was designed by Sega so dose it really count)
• Pikmin = Never really understood the appeal, its not bad but its far from good
• Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance = Meh

 

[the Goat]

It's easy to make moral judgments about how things ought to be designed

No doubt, arm chair quarterbacking is easier than playing ball so point taken.That being said I still don't feel I'm wrong, and again the strongest argument against components inside cables is the Gamecube.

The console cannot output YPbPr, it depends on the custom digital-2-analog chip only found in that outrageously expensive cable.
Compare this to other consoles of that same generation who got it right... Namely PS2 and Xbox
At the console level they both produce YPbPr, as it should be and as a result you can get component cables for less than 20$ (approx 100x cheaper than GC).

The GameCube component cable's retail price from Nintendo was $30. It is only expensive now because it was all but impossible to make more after Nintendo stopped selling them.

 

[jassin000]

It is only expensive now because it was all but impossible to make more after Nintendo stopped selling them

Right, because its a custom IC that wasn't a part of the actual console.
Now don't get me wrong, I'd still bitch if it had so much as a resistor in the cable because that would still be wrong...
But to put a custom inside a cable that was never sold at retail...

I mean it boggles the mind how a "professional" manufacturing company could think this was a good idea.
More than likely it was never really seen as a good idea so much as a production cost solution.
Budget trash bro, fucking clown shoes.

 

[Arthrimus]

The GameCube component cable's retail price from Nintendo was $30. It is only expensive now because it was all but impossible to make more after Nintendo stopped selling them.

And to add to that because of the fact that the second hand prices went so high the community has stepped up and developed a wide array of more feature rich products than Nintendo's original cable. Would anyone have put in the work to develop the HDMI mods, and the dual output mods for GC and Wii if Nintendo had simply put the Component dac inside the Gamecube? I'm not saying that it was necessarily the best design decision, but it is one that has ultimately yielded some excellent solutions.

It is only expensive now because it was all but impossible to make more after Nintendo stopped selling them

Right, because its a custom IC that wasn't a part of the actual console.Now don't get me wrong, I'd still bitch if it had so much as a resistor in the cable because that would still be wrong...
But to put a custom inside a cable that was never sold at retail...

I mean it boggles the mind how a "professional" manufacturing company could think this was a good idea.
More than likely it was never really seen as a good idea so much as a production cost solution.
Budget trash bro, fucking clown shoes.

It may have partly been a cost cutting measure, but I suspect that Nintendo probably had other intentions as well. It was only ever used for the component cable, but the digital port was likely intended for future expansion beyond just the component cable. The fact that the GC was a huge commercial failure is probably why we never saw it used for anything more interesting.

 

[jassin000]

the digital port was likely intended for future expansion beyond just the component cable

Yes in fact it was, but I still insist if they intended for the console to output YPbPr that custom should have been on the PCB.

We are waaaay off-topic now, but the expansion you speak of was 3D glasses.
Not only do we have design documents for it, but Terabit Gaming uncovered (and reported on) left over code in Luigi's Mansion for the 2nd POV camera meaning it was developed/intended to be in 3D at its inception but this was later cut.

Iwata:
Luigi’s Mansion 3D. Unfortunately, we never released it.

Konno:
Yes. We tried fitting the Nintendo GameCube system with a small, roughly four-inch LCD that allowed you to enjoy Luigi’s Mansion in glasses-free 3D.[/color]

Iwata:
We showed that LCD as a reference exhibit at the 2002 E317, but kept the 3D aspect secret. I liked that, though.

Konno:
Yes. It had depth, so it really pulled you into the world of the game. I thought it was great, but...

Iwata:
But we just couldn’t get past the problem of how to sell it.

Konno:
Right. Liquid crystal was still expensive back then, and no matter how new an experience we could provide through the games, there would have been a need for players to buy the LCD as an accessory. There was even talk that it could turn out to be more expensive than the console itself!

 

[JohnRambo'sKnife]

I just wanted to say that I fucking HATE scart cables and having to wire them up. You have to remember it's not a direct connection due to in and out connections on male and female sides. It's a total pain to fit everything inside nicely when you have four caps and a sync separator.

Since I have both EUR and JP21, I have to label them all. Someone should probably print a jamma key lockout so you can't accidentally ruin all your shit. The female ports can only take so much use before they need replaced.

Finally, the nicer cables are so thick you can barely move them without moving what they are attached to as well. The design sucks as a standard. I have since moved towards VGA for everything which is why I love the A-1 Retroscaler so much in addition to it being so stable.

My unwanted two cents...

 

[dan-esc]

What would be the best way to output the 8 Pin MINI DIN to HDMI or VGA? as a SCART compatible monitor isn't available at the moment.

 

[jassin000]

8 pin mini din to SCART cable, SCART cable into OSSC = HDMI
Or... 8 pin mini din to HD15 (often called VGA but that is incorrect because we are talking about the connector not the signal inside) HD15 cable to Retro A1 = VGA

 

[-Ace-]

8 pin mini din to SCART cable, SCART cable into OSSC = HDMI
Or... 8 pin mini din to HD15 (often called VGA but that is incorrect because we are talking about the connector not the signal inside) HD15 cable to Retro A1 = VGA

Can it work just as well to go 8 pin mini din to HD15/VGA into OSSC = HDMI?

 

[xodaraP]

Yep, but you'll need to boost the output to TTL level for the OSSC