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Hammy

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but why ? I'm one of these "hoarders", but I'm dont care ;)
Exactly, you have access to shoutimes trunk of hoarded crap, and MAMEDEV's hoarded crap, lucky you.

I'd of shared them by now, that's the difference between me and you.
 

skate323k137

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but why ? I'm one of these "hoarders", but I'm dont care ;)
Sadly [some] people in every hobby with rare items get angry when the item becomes more accessible. One artist I won't name has a vinyl single pushing $500 in the used market, but is wary to repress it because people will get pissed that it might drop the value of the OG press.

If people want to avoid this feeling I advise only buying stuff you play and not treating this stuff as an "investment."
 

MetalliC

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Exactly, you have access to shoutimes trunk of hoarded crap, and MAMEDEV's hoarded crap, lucky you.
I dont "have access", I'm one of persons who dumped this stuff, but before that we did research and created a tool set to do that. obviously I have the dumped data.
disagree about "lucky you" - I've just wasted a lot of personal life time...

I'd of shared them by now, that's the difference between me and you.
if I know something was dumped, it is in safe hands, it will be public shared sooner or later - for me it's enough. I'm not obsessed to get everything in my hands right now. that's the difference between me and you.
 

buffi

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Wait, does this increase the value of my Akai Katana pcb now that its not in mame? #stonks

158F29A3-7F04-407A-9C7F-FD8C3C042813.jpeg
 

Hammy

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dumped this stuff, but before that we did research and created a tool set to do that.
Been there, done that, released same day.

"lucky you" - I've just wasted a lot of personal life time...
Sarcasm good sir, it is wasted time if it's never put to good use.

it will be public shared sooner or later - for me it's enough.
What's the difference between today and 2084? Half of us will be DEAD and nobody will care anyway.
One of the reasons apocolypse quit is Vertexer, another shoutime hoard, apocalypse had the PCB with some bad ROM but again not shared and he's stuck with a brick.

Wait, does this increase the value of my Akai Katana pcb now that its not in mame? #stonks
Well , it's not the romset from this board is it, you chickened out from dumping it after saying you'd do it.

{EDIT, IT's 100% not from this board they are a different game, cave PCB all look identical LOL, but you know what i'm saying there...}

Anyway seems there's such a conflict here in ethics, these argument can go on until the end of time.
 
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MetalliC

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What's the difference between today and 2084? Half of us will be DEAD and nobody will care anyway.
for me ? none, I'm all about pure preservation. for me it's enough to know some item was "secured". this means I dont have to snipe it by myself.
 

Aurich

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Sorry, I can't get on the outrage train for this one.

There's a commercially available arcade version of the game right now, being respectful of that and not undercutting it is perfectly reasonable on the MAME team's side.

If we're interested in arcades surviving in any form—and I personally am—then getting into pissing matches with the people trying to make it work (yes, as a business, these games have always been commercial enterprises) isn't going to further it.

If you want to start 2022 being mad I guess that's your prerogative, but I'm not interested in getting angry over things like this. I hope the Exa version is a success in a world where arcades are in more peril than any other time in their entire existence personally. I don't know Shou, and I don't really care if he's someone I'd want to be friends with or not, I'm rooting for his success because it's good for the entire hobby.

In the meantime, the actual ROMs are clearly preserved, and aren't in any actual danger of becoming extinct.
 

skate323k137

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Sorry, I can't get on the outrage train for this one.

There's a commercially available arcade version of the game right now, being respectful of that and not undercutting it is perfectly reasonable on the MAME team's side.

If we're interested in arcades surviving in any form—and I personally am—then getting into pissing matches with the people trying to make it work (yes, as a business, these games have always been commercial enterprises) isn't going to further it.

If you want to start 2022 being mad I guess that's your prerogative, but I'm not interested in getting angry over things like this. I hope the Exa version is a success in a world where arcades are in more peril than any other time in their entire existence personally. I don't know Shou, and I don't really care if he's someone I'd want to be friends with or not, I'm rooting for his success because it's good for the entire hobby.

In the meantime, the actual ROMs are clearly preserved, and aren't in any actual danger of becoming extinct.

If arcade ops are operating a dump they are violating both IP law and MAME terms, just saying. Operating MAME at all in a commercial arcade is against the terms.

And I'm not really angry at all just dumbfounded at the lack of legal standing they had to pull this in this exact notice. It's source code, it doesn't infringe their IP. It sets a very bitter precedent for emulation developers, thankfully not one decided in a court.

I still fully respect MAME decision for the reasons MetalliC mentioned, but, I still think it's a scummy move to send that exact letter. That doesn't mean I don't want EXA Arcadia to succeed; I do. Being a dick isn't good for any hobby regardless of the person's success. Imagine if SEGA were releasing yet another compilation with Sonic, and started sending cease and desist notices to Sega Genesis emulator developers.

Anyway, since they filed this garbage cease and desist against MAME, 3 people emailed me the roms and code. So...

View: https://youtu.be/WK4HHaNhcgU
 
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kebrank

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Wait, are we talking about…
The same guy that asks people to pay for the protos he purchases for himself on yahoo japan or somewhere else (in other words he sells the roms to the community so he profits from them)?
The same guy that likes to brag about his arcade collection more than Donald Trump about his hotels?
The same guy that is going to save the arcade world with his expensive steam arcade machine?
The same guy that sells a $10 steam game for $1200 for his EXA platform?
Honestly, if somebody ever thought this guy is not 100% motivated by greed needs to watch The Wolf of Wall Street.
thanks,
\o/.k.
 

kazuo

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If arcade ops are operating a dump they are violating both IP law and MAME terms, just saying. Operating MAME at all in a commercial arcade is against the terms.

There are tons of ops running Darksoft multis, Super/Ultra BIOS, net booting Naomis, the list goes on. Some of them even post on this forum. I doubt they would care much about running MAME in a commercial setting.
 

Nebula

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One of the reasons apocolypse quit is Vertexer, another shoutime hoard, apocalypse had the PCB with some bad ROM but again not shared and he's stuck with a brick.

This is quite shameful…
what’s the profit or motivation of hoarding such a rare game, and avoid to help other buddies to make their pcbs back to life?
 

skate323k137

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There are tons of ops running Darksoft multis, Super/Ultra BIOS, net booting Naomis, the list goes on. Some of them even post on this forum. I doubt they would care much about running MAME in a commercial setting.
Oh I know they don't care, shit I send them 0 keys, but regarding MAME it still it is against the terms and law nonetheless.

My point here is not that it would stop ops from running MAME, but rather, EXAs cease and desist is on shaky legs with a dreamt up damage amount.
 

MetalliC

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btw,
Operating MAME at all in a commercial arcade is against the terms.
are not correct.
it is illegal to use pre-2016 MAME versions commercially, or any its derivatives like for example "mame2003-plus" from RetroArch/Libretro.
modern MAME versions have no any commercial use restrictions
 

skate323k137

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btw,

are not correct.
it is illegal to use pre-2016 MAME versions commercially, or any its derivatives like for example "mame2003-plus" from RetroArch/Libretro.
it is pretty much legal to use modern MAME versions for any commercial use (ofc it you legally obtain ROMs etc).
Good to know, been a minute since I read that all in full 😆

Still then if an OP operates illegal roms thats on them, not the EMU Dev. Legally the rights holder only should be able to hold damages against actual losses, i.e. Go after the arcades if they want to flip over that rock... I wouldn't.

Anyway I'm ranting at this point. I understand why MAME did comply, but I will definitely remember this in the future when thinking of EXA.
 
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kazuo

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At the end of the day, the terms of use/license have little bearing on whether or not EXA was within their rights to request removal. MAME does not contain any proprietary game code or IP belonging to CAVE (or licensed to EXA), therefore the C&D does not have any teeth. Clean-room revsere engineering (including emulation) is legal and protected by law (see Sony vs Connectix).

This most likely happened as a courtesy to Shou/EXA and to avoid any legal entanglements which would cost MAME team time and money that is better spent on development and preservation.
 

skate323k137

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This most likely happened as a courtesy to Shou/EXA and to avoid any legal entanglements which would cost MAME team time and money that is better spent on development and preservation.
That's basically exactly what MetalliC said a few posts back, they effctively comply with rights holders as a courtesy / by default and I understand why. Lawyers are expensive. But this precedent is still crappy, not by fault of MAME.

Also since this has been the policy of MAME perhaps shoutime knows this and could have just asked the favor instead of sending a BS C&D.
 
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MetalliC

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Clean-room revsere engineering (including emulation)
:cursing:guys, please do not use terms if you don't know what they actually means. neither of emulators of undocumented platforms (=all arcades) was developed using clean-room reverse engineering. all of them are "not clean" :)
 
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