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Going through the motions of *paying* to decap and dump a PIC16C621A Naomi PIC (.hex and .asm attached)

Finisterre

Finisterre

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I'm still playing catch up in this community, and one of the lingering things for me is being able to make my own Naomi / Chihiro PICs of all permutations, and with the various keys (for specific games) and types (Net, CF, and Zero for each). I'm still personally having issues making Chihiro Zero Pics... and for what ever reason there is some unclear air (often mentioned as "drama") over the validity of various public decompiled PIC sources. Rather than spread further inaccurate information, I decided to simply pay to have my own PIC decapped for historic reasons, and posterity. I have attached the result of this exercise to this post.

This is a continuation of where I left off in the "How to create a Zero Pic..." post if anyone cares: How to Create a Zero Key (PIC) For Net Booting and CF on NAOMI Chihiro and Triforce

The specific PIC I sent off went to Virtua Golf, and it was known to have a key of: B93B6704B03E9B4A, you can see that confirmed in the output from PicDisasm V1.6 below. http://www.citylan.it/wiki/index.php/Virtua_Golf_/_Dynamic_Golf_(Rev_A)_(GDS-0009A)

Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 11.16.17 AM.png

I have attached both the .hex from the company that dumped it for me (cost $100), and the .asm that PICDisasm spits out.

Hopefully this can be of use to someone whom is taking notes, and catching up like myself. I know @werejag, @skate323k137 and others are often caught up in this exact conversation... http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showt...ull-Zero-key&p=3654230&viewfull=1#post3654230
Screen Shot 2018-10-25 at 11.25.07 AM.png

Cheers...
 

Attachments

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Interesting, let's take a look

>hex2bin -p 0 16c621a-Kevin-Oct22.hex
hex2bin v1.0.10, Copyright (C) 2012 Jacques Pelletier & contributors
Lowest address = 00000000
Highest address = 0000400F
Pad Byte = 0
8-bit Checksum = ED

>snip -n 2048 -o 0 16c621a-Kevin-Oct22.bin kevin.bin
Cutting: from offset 0, 2048 bytes

>picinfo.exe kevin.bin
file name : 16c621a-Kevin-Oct22.bin
DES key : b93b6704b03e9b4a
boot file : BDJ.BIN
type : NORMAL

Compare the two images:

Code: 
Files are 2048 (0x800) bytes in size
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
00000780  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
00000780  b9                                               | .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
00000782  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
00000782  3b                                               | ;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
00000784  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
00000784  67                                               | g
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
00000786  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
00000786  04                                               | .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
00000788  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
00000788  b0                                               | .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
0000078a  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
0000078a  3e                                               | >
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
0000078c  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
0000078c  9b                                               | .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
000007a0  00                                               | .
File kevin.bin:
000007a0  4a                                               | J
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
000007c0  41                                               | A
File kevin.bin:
000007c0  42                                               | B
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
000007c2  42                                               | B
File kevin.bin:
000007c2  44                                               | D
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
File ABC_BIN_0000000000000000.bin:  1 (0x1) byte different
000007c4  43                                               | C
File kevin.bin:
000007c4  4a                                               | J
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Files are the same except the bootfile name and the key :D

I posted picinfo earlier, here is a direct link:

https://www.arcade-projects.com/forums/index.php?attachments/1766/
 
Actually... yes. I’ve never been much of a solicit loot to support my desires kinda guy. Likewise I never took preorders during my tenure selling PCBs of OpenPilot variants. I’ll foot the bill and share with the community accordingly.

I wanted to first check their ability to decap before I looked at any other variants. Soon enough I’ll do Chihiro and Lindy.
 
Finisterre said:
I wanted to first check their ability to decap before I looked at any other variants. Soon enough I’ll do Chihiro and Lindy.
Click to expand...
chihiro yes. Lindbergh is still being supported by sega, so it's a no-no.
 
Darksoft said:
chihiro yes. Lindbergh is still being supported by sega, so it's a no-no.
Click to expand...
Respectfully... I think you are splitting hairs that you should not try to split.

https://www.segaarcade.com/arcade-game-technical-support/supported-hardware.html

I'm thinking this may not be where you want to hang your hat regarding the moral high ground. This is a fallacious concept that you have pitched at best.

"The Sega mantra is "repair NOT replace", and they truly believe this is the key to the longevity of support on all of their developed and supplied hardware. There is seldom a situation where they are unable to repair a board or offer a solution. If you do not see a game platform or product listed, give the team a call or drop them an email at technical@sega.co.uk and they will point you in the right direction. "

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 9.33.54 AM.png
 
At the risk of going off topic on my own thread: I'm slightly curious where the purported End of Life information came from in the first place... I've personally never seen an End of Life announcement on Sega Hardware. Even the words "There is seldom a situation where they are unable to repair a board or offer a solution. If you do not see a game platform or product listed, give the team a call" seems to imply they *will* support folks in the right conditions IF they can.

I've seen an announcement of end of sales of "repair parts", but that does not translate to "end of support" exactly.

"We would like to extend our deep appreciation for a long patronage for our products, but we regret to inform you that we have decided to discontinue sales of the maintenance parts for some titles due to the unavailability of supply in the market. The subject to the parts of sales termination is the titles which have been on sale more than 7 years, and as soon as the present stock of parts run out."
https://www2.sls-net.co.jp/cms/sls/pdf/news/16_12_SEGA_Parts.pdf

@Darksoft can you point to Sega platforms *documented* as NOT "being supported by sega", due to an EOL announcement? I'm trying to understand how much of this is contrived vs reality.

I've personally only seen claims Naomi was supported from 1998-2009 on random Wiki's etc., but never any supporting fact for the "end of support" claim. Do we have actual documentation of this claim, or is it simply regurgitated community commentary? There is a difference in not selling parts, and not supporting your product.
 
@Darksoft FWIW... in following a trail on the Sega website, "See our full range of spares and services here or for more information please contact Play It! Amusements on +1 224-265-4287" https://www.segaarcade.us.com/arcade-game-technical-support/introduction.html
Lo and behold... Search for "Naomi" http://store.playitamusements.com/ProductListing.aspx?Search=naomi

They are still selling parts... so what does that mean? It is "supported"?

Magic 8 ball says "Reply hazy, try again" , there may need to be some serious rethinking on the current landscape IF "supported" is where we are hanging our hats.

Unknown.jpeg

Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 10.13.55 AM.png

I think it would be a stretch to say Play It Amusements (Sega) wasn't still "supporting" Naomi just the same as Chihiro, Lindy, etc... alas IANAL.
Screen Shot 2018-10-26 at 10.17.13 AM.png
 
Finisterre said:
I've personally only seen claims Naomi was supported from 1998-2009 on random Wiki's etc., but never any supporting fact for the "end of support" claim. Do we have actual documentation of this claim, or is it simply regurgitated community commentary? There is a difference in not selling parts, and not supporting your product.
Click to expand...
There's no litmus test for this. it's a matter of whether or not the company is still making enough money from the property to raise interest in legal action. So for instance you could have a recent game that they don't give two shits about, or a game that's 30 years old that they'll raise a stink about.

Don't get me wrong, it'd be great if there was a clear line that says, everything on one side is ok, everything on the other is not. But, at the end of the day this is Darksoft's site so it's his call as to where that line is drawn and how much liability he want's expose himself to.
 
twistedsymphony said:
But, at the end of the day this is Darksoft's site so it's his call as to where that line is drawn and how much liability he want's expose himself to.
Click to expand...
very much THIS... and that is what I was trying to grok exactly. *unfortunately* some of this posturing has become gospel in the community. It is indeed a means to shield liability IMHO, but per the mantra here, we should likewise not spread inaccurate info.

So sharing Lindy, and above security key dumps *here* may be deemed a "no-no", but in reality, it is no different than the existing landscape around Naomi PICs, or for example the small circle of folks selling *working* Chihiro keys (Mitsu!). So I want to be clear in that regard it is an artificial, contrived 'No-No'.

In the last 30 minutes I called Play It amusements myself, and flat out asked IF Naomi is still a supported platform, the answer is "yes". I also flat out asked IF I could purchase replacement security keys, and was told "NO" followed by "Japan will not let us sell them, an they have not for like 12 years". I was unable to procure a Japanese contact to ask further, but I will do so...


Hopefully this clears the air on the *real* no-no's vs the contrived ones.
 
Finisterre said:
twistedsymphony said:
But, at the end of the day this is Darksoft's site so it's his call as to where that line is drawn and how much liability he want's expose himself to.
Click to expand...
very much THIS... and that is what I was trying to grok exactly. *unfortunately* some of this posturing has become gospel in the community. It is indeed a means to shield liability IMHO, but per the mantra here, we should likewise not spread inaccurate info.
So sharing Lindy, and above security key dumps *here* may be deemed a "no-no", but in reality, it is no different than the existing landscape around Naomi PICs, or for example the small circle of folks selling *working* Chihiro keys (Mitsu!). So I want to be clear in that regard it is an artificial, contrived 'No-No'.

In the last 30 minutes I called Play It amusements myself, and flat out asked IF Naomi is still a supported platform, the answer is "yes". I also flat out asked IF I could purchase replacement security keys, and was told "NO" followed by "Japan will not let us sell them, an they have not for like 12 years". I was unable to procure a Japanese contact to ask further, but I will do so...


Hopefully this clears the air on the *real* no-no's vs the contrived ones.
Click to expand...
If you find a way to purchase any parts from Sega Japan let me know, Im in need of a few parts for my ID7 cab.
 
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fsckewe said:
Not allowed?
werejag said:
looking at this i was correct about my changes. great to have confirmed what i did
Click to expand...
Naw dude, you were spreading bullshit ;) You must be one of those "dumb people" repeatedly referred to in this thread. Real welcoming attitude.
https://www.arcade-projects.com/forums/index.php?threads/programming-zero-key-pic.3582/post-100311

I appreciate your work werejag and follow up confirming this decap!!
Click to expand...
since ive never been spreading bullshit and i have been vindicated here. i dont know i needed to not tell the facts to welcome anyone here.

ifi misunderstood you im sorry. trying to understand what you said
 
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