Naomi has me lost

[Big_P Big_p]

Looking for either some help or encouragement here.
I have had a naomi 1 mb around for years but never set it up as it always just felt too difficult. I currently have 2 JAMMA cabinets one with an MVS and 161 in 1 and one with a darksoft CPS2 multi and a chinese CPS1 multi jamma switcher in it.

I hardly ever play the CPS1 as the 2 has both final fight AE and SF2T anyway. So without room for a 3rd cabinet (actually a 4th because I have a shmups tabletop I forgot about) I was thinking about removing the CPS1 setup and running a Naomi/CPS2 multi cab.

I figure this will give me enough problems so the idea would be to run 2 totally separate power supplies that could be switched between by either turning the mains power switch up for naomi or down for cps2 (so you could boot into either at start up with each having their own completely independent power set up). While I can see a few issues with coin mechs and the like. This bit I pretty much have sorted in my head.

Where I need help is with JVS I/O, netdimm piforce and integration with the existing controls, while still leaving the cps2 fully wired and ready to play when that psu is selected.

Too many options too many opinions. My thoughts were open jvs on the same rpie running the netboot. If this were 2 jamma systems I could just wire up a board with a diode on each controller input, wire both systems to this, and know it would work. I am a little lost with jvs inputs. Ideas thought? and no I don't really want to go a capcom I/O board jamma switcher route.

 

[nam9]

Simplest would be the Sega JVS jamma adapter. Would adapt the full Naomi system to jamma for you.

wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/JVS

Either the Sega 838-13683-93 or Sega 838-13683-02
The Capcom I/O will work the same, with some advantages, but may struggle with a NetDimm setup, plus cost a lot more.

You will still need to power the Naomi (you can buy an ATX to JVS adapter from @Mitsurugi-w (Link)), and to handle audio…

 

[notsonic]

If you want to put it in the CPS 2 cabinet, just get the Capcom I/O. That's all you need.

 

[twistedsymphony]

If you want to plug your NAOMI into a JAMMA cab you basically have 3 options
1. CAPCOM JVS to JAMMA Converter
2. Sega JVS to JAMMA Converter
3. Sega JVS to JAMMA IO

1. Capcom JVS to JAMMA
Benefits:
- Its the easiest: you plug it in and you'll get a JAMMA edge and CPS2 style expansion port to make it pin compatible with a CSP2 or CPS3 setup.
- Has built in Audio AMP for audio over JAMMA
- Tends to be pretty easy to find
Pitfalls
- It's the most expensive option
- it doesn't have great support for games with non-standard controls (like twins-sticks, trackballs, lamp outputs etc.)
- I've heard they add a frame of latency over other JVS IO options

2. Sega JVS to JAMMA Converter
Benefits:
- Has built in Audio AMP for audio over JAMMA
- Less expensive than the Capcom Converter
- DOES support a lot of games with non-standard controls
Pitfalls
- the most difficult to find on the list
- kick harness connector is non-standard, would require an adapter/conversion harness to plug into a cab setup for CPS2 style connector

3. Sega JVS to JAMMA IO
Benefits:
- Least expensive options
- Easiest to find option
- DOES support a lot of games with non-standard controls
Pitfalls
- Because it's an "IO" and not a "Converter" it has No built in audio amp, so your cab will need to support RCA stereo or you'd need a separate amp
- Because it's an "IO" and not a "Converter" it has no built in power conversion (more on this below)
- kick harness connector is non-standard, would require an adapter/conversion harness to plug into a cab setup for CPS2 style connector

Power Supply
The Sega and Capcom "Converters" both include power conversion. This means that it takes the 5V power from your JAMMA edge and converts it to the 3.3V that the NAOMI needs. Unfortunately a JAMMA PSU and harness doesn't supply enough current to safely run a NAOMI with extra equipment like a DIMM board. This means that both the Sega and the Capcom converters can only supply power to the NAOMI if you're running CARTRIDGE games... it doesn't work if you're using a DIMM/GDROM setup, Netbooting, or CF booting.

If you want to Netboot then you MUST use a dedicated power supply for the NAOMI. I highly recommend getting one of the official SUN brand PSUs. They've become more expensive over the years, but they're a lot more reliable and work better than any of the DIY setups people tend to build for NAOMI to save money.

Simple setup
IF NAOMI scares you or seems confusing then I'd recommend this.
1. buy a Capcom Converter
2. buy a Cartridge game for your NAOMI (something that uses normal joystick controls)

Because that is 100% of what you'd need to start playing games on your mobo... just a cart and the converter. Get your feet wet with that, get a working setup, THEN add complexity on top of it to net boot.

After you've got your simple setup going, buy a Power Supply then follow the link below to get netbooting.

Net Booting
There's a whole guide here: https://www.arcade-projects.com/thr...-tri-force-chihiro-using-pi-force-tools.1086/

 

[nam9]

Yep. That.

 

[Big_P Big_p]

Thanks @twistedsymphony pretty much exactly what I needed. It's not that it particularly scares me, it's more that everthing seems an awful lot of effort without a dedicated cab and I just can't fit one. Lots of the required parts seem to be rather difficult to find and the opinions about what to use seem really broad.

That wrapped it all up pretty nicely. The issue I have is that I don't really want to use a switcher and I don't really want to swap a harness, I am pretty sure I can work out a way to make that happen with the info provided however

Is there a reason no one has ever designed an open source io or jamma converter?

 

[notsonic]

There is at least one open source IO: https://github.com/tdaede/td-io

 

[twistedsymphony]

Is there a reason no one has ever designed an open source io or jamma converter?

There are open source IOs

For what purpose would you want one?

 

[Big_P Big_p]

There are open source IOs

For what purpose would you want one?

Not so much that I wanted one, just more that I had not really come across any in my research and was interested.

 

[twistedsymphony]

the two I know about is the one notsonic posted and the MEGA JVS https://github.com/winteriscomingpinball/MEGA-JVS

these projects tend to be for really odd-ball scenarios though like rare and highly specialized IO board for games with non-standard controls.

for regular joystick and button style inputs there's no reason to build a custom IO since the off the shelf ones tend to be cheap and easy to source.

 

[kikaso]

There is at least one open source IO: https://github.com/tdaede/td-io

The TD-IO is great!

It’s very similar to the Capcom IO in terms of simplicity, (jamma edge, momo audio amp, CPS2 kick harness connector) but without the reported one frame of lag. It can also be found cheaper than some Capcom IOs especially if you build it yourself.

A drawback compared to the Capcom IO is that it doesn’t offer the ability to switch between 2 player/6 buttons or 4 player/4 buttons via the kick harness connector but that’s less of an issue if you’re putting this inside a 2 player cabinet. You can chain the JVS IO to another IO board. I’ve done this with the very awesome MultiJVS for some 4-player Power Stone action.

 

[Big_P Big_p]

Thanks guys, the information provided has been just awesome.

@kikaso Is that set up running the Naomi off the psu directly so the Naomi power of the TD-IO is just connected to a volt/amp meter? Which I am guessing means that you have a JVS 12v 5v and 3.3v as well as 12v and 5v running through JAMMA plug to the TD-IO? and if this is the case I am guessing it is for the reason @twistedsymphony pointed too with the JAMMA PSU not been enough to run a netboot setup.

It is not so much that any of this is out of my skill set, it was just more that I am comfortable with JAMMA and there are so many different opinions about the best way to go. Even when I have had a Naomi on the bench for repair it has seemed more difficult than I would have liked to get it setup (and typically that has been with the customers working IO setup) as I have never really had one setup myself. I like the idea of the TD-IO as it is well within my skill set to build myself and I may actually feel a bit better about JVS once I have. I also like the idea of running a cartridge first as I have looked for a netdimm before and had troubles finding one that I was sure would work. This may also not be such a problem if i was a little more comfortable with the Naomi itself and the netboot idea.

I just fixed c29 on one for a customer with CVS2 which got me thinking of getting mine set up again as I forgot how much I liked CVS2. Almost everything on the board between c29 and c31 needed looking at and not having mine going since probably the last time it was run in the arcade in about 2005, this type of issue if also not out of the question with mine. Added to this I have always had trouble with the serial comms on the Naomi which has seemed a little bit of a black box. looking at some of the code that goes with the td-io some of these concerns may also be answered by attempting the build. It is not something I can get onto right away as I have just decided to build a new minigun for the test bench which will take a bit of time but once this is done I will start looking at the Naomi a little more.

I really cant thank you guys enough this was pretty much exactly what I needed and ill keep you posted of my progress.

 

[kikaso]

@kikaso Is that set up running the Naomi off the psu directly so the Naomi power of the TD-IO is just connected to a volt/amp meter? Which I am guessing means that you have a JVS 12v 5v and 3.3v as well as 12v and 5v running through JAMMA plug to the TD-IO? and if this is the case I am guessing it is for the reason @twistedsymphony pointed too with the JAMMA PSU not been enough to run a netboot setup.

Correct.

I have an Sega NVS-4000 PSU which has the necessary 3.3V for JVS systems in addition to 5V and 12V. This PSU, however, does not have -5V so it’s not technically JAMMA compliant. Some JAMMA games require -5V for the sound but I don’t have any in my collection.

A JAMMA-only PSU will not have the 3.3V required for any JVS system, including Naomi. Some IOs like the TD-IO and Capcom IO have a way to convert the 5V to 3.3V but this does not produce enough amperage to power a Naomi netboot setup but you can run Naomi on cartridges this way.

 

[Big_P Big_p]

Si thanks for the help getting this set up. The Naomi itself is working with carts and a sega I/O I had in a box of old stuff and is waiting for the TD-IO I am in the process of building.
Next adventure is a dimm board. So I found one of these in the same old box as the Sega I/O, great but it's not firmware 3.17 or higher. So a bit of stuffing around, desoldering and soldering and it is. A bit more investigation and it appears that I need the daughterboard from a netdimm to get it to 4.02 from 3.17, is this correct? If I get a daughter board don't I then effectively have a netdimm? And does anyone have any idea where I can get a daughter board from?

 

[nam9]

Pretty sure you need v3.17 or higher to upgrade the Dimm board via Ethernet, but you can flash the Dimm all the way to 4.02/3.
Yes, you’ll need the daughter board to use it as a NetDimm, and unfortunately the only source of those is a NetDimm. There are a few CF options for the standard Dimm you could look into…

 

[Big_P Big_p]

Pretty sure you need v3.17 or higher to upgrade the Dimm board via Ethernet, but you can flash the Dimm all the way to 4.02/3.
Yes, you’ll need the daughter board to use it as a NetDimm, and unfortunately the only source of those is a NetDimm. There are a few CF options for the standard Dimm you could look into…

I was just starting to wonder if I was going to have to remove the bios again. From what I had read it sounded like you needed to upgrade consecutively via Ethernet from 3.17 to 4.02. I just started to think that this was silly and surely I could have just put 4.02 on it to begin with. Oh well here er go again. Thanks

 

[nam9]

Don’t think you need the bios any higher without the Ethernet daughterboard, and with the Ethernet daughterboard you can upgrade the bios with transfer.exe or Naomi Pi tools. You’ve done the hard bit already

 

[nem]

Pretty sure you need v3.17 or higher to upgrade the Dimm board via Ethernet, but you can flash the Dimm all the way to 4.02/3.

Nope, any 2.xx firmware or above will work for netbooting.

There are a few CF options for the standard Dimm you could look into…

Can't run CF unless you're on 4.xx.

 

[Big_P Big_p]

Is there a don't like button? I kinda liked what @nam9 suggested and @nem brings the reality. Looks like off it comes again. Thanks guys.

 

[Big_P Big_p]

Anyone here know what typically breaks on a netdimm? Just spoke to a friend in Japan who said he has a non working netdimm I can have. Interested if this is just another time muncher that will just sit on my desk or if they are typically an easy fix.