Button layout help

[winteriscoming]

I'm wiring my JAMMA cab up for CPS2 with 6 buttons per player, and I can't find a good reference for button layout for the 6 buttons.

Is it this?
1 2 3
4 5 6

Or this?
1 3 5
2 4 6

Or something else?

Given that it's called a "kick" harness, I was thinking the buttons from the extra header would be the 2 kick buttons for SF, which leads me to believe the layout is the 2nd one I posted.

Maybe I haven't searched hard enough, but all button layout results I'm finding on Google seem geared towards MAME.

Thanks!

 

[twistedsymphony]

Is it this?
1 2 3
4 5 6

^this

Given that it's called a "kick" harness, I was thinking the buttons from the extra header would be the 2 kick buttons for SF, which leads me to believe the layout is the 2nd one I posted.

it's called the "kick harnes" because buttons 4 5 and 6 are the kick buttons and all THREE of them are on the kick harness.

button 4 is an odd duck as a lot of 4-button games include it on the jamma edge where most 6 button games do not.

if you've ever seen a 7 button layout my preferred wiring method is:

(1J) (2J) (3J) (4J)
(4K) (5K) (6K)

 

[winteriscoming]

Thanks!

I'm clearly not well versed in Capcom fighters, because I forgot the entire bottom row was kick buttons...

That's a bummer about inconsistent button 4. Does that come into play in the CPS2 library? I've had the multi for a while, but no good cab for playing. I'm just now to the point of converting a dynamo control panel to 6 button, and I'd hate to add a 7th at this point (my hands have gotten so many metal splinters the past couple of days).

Any risk of wiring button 4 to JAMMA and kick harness button 4 and install diodes from each towards ground?

 

[twistedsymphony]

That's a bummer about inconsistent button 4. Does that come into play in the CPS2 library

it is inconsistent in the CPS2 library.

some games (like D&D) only use button 4 on the JAMMA edge, other games will use button 4 on both the JAMMA and kick (so you can use either or, but you'll have a bad time if you try to wire both to the same button at the same time)

I'm not familiar enough with the library to see if there are any that use only the kick connector and NOT the JAMMA edge for button 4 though.

Neo Geo and PGM only use button 4 on the JAMMA edge
then you have 4-button games like TEKKEN that are wired like this:

(1J)(2J)
(4K)(5K)

Which honestly works nicely for a typically Street Fighter setup since it just ignores the two right most buttons. On the other side of this... don't even look at the Primal Rage button layout.

------
IMO if you're mostly playing 4-button games like stuff on NeoGeo and D&D use button 4 from the JAMMA edge, if you're mostly playing 6-button games like Street Fighter, use button 4 on the Kick Harness.

If you want the best-compatibility with both, consider the 7-button layout I mentioned in my last post.

 

[winteriscoming]

Man, I wish I had looked into this before making my modifications. I accurately mapped out my dynamo control panel and cnc cut the acrylic overlay and underlying support board for recessed joysticks. The only thing I had to manually do was clear out metal that blocked buttons (thus the metal splinters).

It looks like I have room for a 7th button per player, but I'll either have to manually cut the holes or remake the cnc cut parts. And it's all going to look off-center. Maybe I'll make that button black so it won't stand out against the red, white and blue from the SF2:CE color scheme.

 

[twistedsymphony]

I honestly think a dynamo cab would look weird and be cramped with a 7-button layout.
You could always keep the 6-button layout and add an 8PDT electrical switch

for 6-button games:
(1J) (2J) (3J)
(4K) (5K) (6K)

for 4-button games:
(2J) (3J) (4J)
(1J) ( - ) ( - )

as a side note... I used to like the nice neatly arranged button look of USA cabs, but after spending time playing on the more ergonomic JP cab button layouts I can't bring myself to go back: https://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout/sega2_l.png

 

[winteriscoming]

as a side note... I used to like the nice neatly arranged button look of USA cabs, but after spending time playing on the more ergonomic JP cab button layouts I can't bring myself to go back: slagcoin.com/joystick/layout/sega2_l.pn

Is the joystick still straight up and down in that configuration or rotated slightly?

 

[twistedsymphony]

Is the joystick still straight up and down in that configuration or rotated slightly?

still straight up and down.
it tends to be more comfortable since it follows the natural contour for your first 4 fingers.
P1 and P2 contours tend to be different too, with P2's buttons rotated slightly counter clockwise.

between the different arcade manufacturers and various fight-sticks there are many different variations of this "ergonomic" layout beyond the one I linked to.

AFAIK no cabs in the US were ever really made like that, it was definitely a JP thing. but going between my candy cabs and my USA KI2 cab my wrists cry at the thought of playing on a straight-arranged panel.

JP panels also seem to be parallel to the ground and at a high amicable to adults as opposed to angled toward the player to accommodate children like most USA cabs. I've grown to like this better too.

 

[winteriscoming]

If I used that layout, and had 1 and 2 the same, it takes up a bit less room for 7 buttons. Looks kind of ugly, though.

 

[nem]

Looks great IMO!

 

[winteriscoming]

I may go for it. Did I get p1 and 2 differences correct in this one? I was trying to follow the Sega ones from here (also the place where @twistedsymphony linked earlier): https://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/layout.html

 

[twistedsymphony]

I mean really it depends what your goals are.

Personally
If I was "restoring" a dynamo cab I'd keep it original, 6-button with a straight layout of concave buttons and bat-top sticks, because that's how they were supposed to be.

If I was building a cab as my primary cab to play on every day, then I'd build it however it'd be most comfortable to play. but honestly if this were my goal I wouldn't be building a dynamo cab at all.

 

[twistedsymphony]

Did I get p1 and 2 differences correct in this one?

AFAIK Sega never did a 7-button panel. Their arcades were only ever up to 6-button but they did do an 8-button panel for the Saturn Fight stick based on the Astro City. you can get a good sense of the P1 and P2 button differences here Also noticed that P1 and P2 are both shifted slightly to the right. I think this was mostly done to ensure that the player's left wrist had a nice flat area to rest on while playing (but that's just speculation on my part). I've definitely played on cabs with the P1 joystick way to the left and it's annoying if you get a panel bolt right under your palm or if you don't have enough panel there to have your wrist against.


best reference for 7-button is the Taito Vewlix, but there doesn't seem to be much (any?) difference in rotation between the players. most likely because the panel is a lot wider so the players are spaced out more.

 

[winteriscoming]

I mean really it depends what your goals are.

Personally
If I was "restoring" a dynamo cab I'd keep it original, 6-button with a straight layout of concave buttons and bat-top sticks, because that's how they were supposed to be.

If I was building a cab as my primary cab to play on every day, then I'd build it however it'd be most comfortable to play. but honestly if this were my goal I wouldn't be building a dynamo cab at all.

I just want the cab to play games. It's a Dynamo and I have it. It has no theme, it's beat up, has no usable stock holes for a 6 button layout in the metal Swiss cheese that's there, and has very little value other than it's already in my basement and was getting nearly zero use as a light gun cab. My goal isn't even really to beautify or restore the cab, though I might throw the generic "metal" Capcom cpo on it. I just want buttons in the control panel to work with my CPS2 multi and I don't want to mess with changing up configurations to switch from one game to the next in the multi.

If the Japanese layout is more ergonomic, I'm willing to try it. It's not like I can't revert back to a western layout if I hate it.

 

[Aurich]

I used to like the nice neatly arranged button look of USA cabs, but after spending time playing on the more ergonomic JP cab button layouts I can't bring myself to go back

I play fighting games every day pretty much. No way I would ever want to go back to the terrible USA straight layout. Or use USA sticks for that matter. They feel ridiculously clunky after adjusting to Sanwa JLFs.

 

[xodaraP]

Also keep in mind that some of the CPS2 games (Darkstalkers comes to mind but I think XvSF also has the same issue) do not function properly if button 4/5 are connected on the JAMMA edge and the kick harness.

Ideally you need a way to disconnect them from the JAMMA edge when using the kick harness for these games

Confusingly since one of the D&D games uses 4 buttons for all 4 players, you have to have these connected on both. Also one hell of a 4P harness (I built one and wow)

 

[winteriscoming]

Also keep in mind that some of the CPS2 games (Darkstalkers comes to mind but I think XvSF also has the same issue) do not function properly if button 4/5 are connected on the JAMMA edge and the kick harness.

In these cases is it an either/or situation where the game/s accept an input from either JAMMA or the kick harness for 4 and 5?

If I make a 7 button layout with JAMMA 4 as button 7, are there cases that still need JAMMA 5 that don't allow it on the kick harness?

 

[muckyfingers]

Also keep in mind that some of the CPS2 games (Darkstalkers comes to mind but I think XvSF also has the same issue) do not function properly if button 4/5 are connected on the JAMMA edge and the kick harness.

In these cases is it an either/or situation where the game/s accept an input from either JAMMA or the kick harness for 4 and 5?
If I make a 7 button layout with JAMMA 4 as button 7, are there cases that still need JAMMA 5 that don't allow it on the kick harness?

those particular games have issues if the jamma edge button 4 and kick harness button 4 are wired to the same button. Not an issue for your 7 button set up.

As for button 5 on the jamma edge, the atomiswave board is the only one I know that uses it as an action button. Neo Geo uses it as a game select button on multi slot boards.

 

[twistedsymphony]

off the top of my head
Street Fighter 1
Street Fighter The Movie
Sega JVS to JAMMA IO
Taito Vewlix JAMMA kit

all use JAMMA buttons 4 and 5 with button 6 alone on a separate connector
JAMMA button 5 is really a pretty uncommon setup.

 

[Geddon]

Using some diodes would let you wire both b4s to the same button right? Or are you saying engaging both at the same time causes some weirdness? For cps2 I made a harness for the fighting games and made a little box that gives me two controller ports for 3/4 player games so I use one or the other. There is probably a more elegant solution but I would need to see the harness pin out for every game. Sounds like a project! I’m thinking the 3/4 player box that has the kick harness coming out of it and some switching so it will work with any game.

That's a bummer about inconsistent button 4. Does that come into play in the CPS2 library

it is inconsistent in the CPS2 library.
some games (like D&D) only use button 4 on the JAMMA edge, other games will use button 4 on both the JAMMA and kick (so you can use either or, but you'll have a bad time if you try to wire both to the same button at the same time)