What's new
By:
Filters

Dodonpachi 2 - Bee Storm troubleshooting

nassekova said:
TheDeath said:
Are these PALs dumped and converted to Gal?
If these are protected and no one dumped them, you can throw it in the bin
ShootTheCore said:
VP598 is the entry-level programmer I recommend. It supports more EPROMs than the TOP3000 without adapter boards, and it can program 27C322 chips in one pass while the TOP3000 requires bank switching.
Click to expand...
I always used my Top3000 for 27c322 and i've never done anything else than put them on the socket and hit burn. Maybe an old software revision?
Click to expand...
At least MAME did not have .u14 or .u15 files so it is looking bad... I thought that perhaps these are some memory chips that cartridge writes but it seems that that is not the case. I can read the working one and it gives me file full of ones and zeroes, so at least I can dump that. Does that sound proper content of the dump, some sort of assembly binary? What are the odds that these would have identical roms and I could just get new empty PAL and write it with the dump of the other working chip? Is that completely unheard of :rolleyes: ? Or can some one with Bee Storm dump their files from these two PALs?
Click to expand...
No, these are not "simple memory chips", these are:

"PAL devices have arrays of transistor cells arranged in a "fixed-OR, programmable-AND" plane used to implement "sum-of-products" binary logic equations for each of the outputs in terms of the inputs and either synchronous or asynchronous feedback from the outputs"


They are basically programmed gates. You cannot "dump" them and copy them. Well technically you can dump them but the result is wrong and the equation is not correct.

If you really want to dump them you need to solve the equation, but i'm not going to technical details since is out of my knowledge. The only thing i know is that you can't, not in that easy way at least.

If mame did not have that, well, there's nothing you can do (however, mame never had these in the rom set, the only place you can find them is at jammaarcade.net, they are dumped, converted and working. And no, they don't have ddp2).
These are basically the "keys" to the pcb door and they've been going since many years to prevent people make bootleg (and conversion, for us).

I suggest you to take a look at PGM conversions, there might be something usefull in order to replace that pal.
 
Thanks for clearing it out!

It looks like my situation, like Barb's scalloped potatoes, is fucked.

Need to look that PGM conversion thread as a last resort hope, but I guess I should not keep my hopes up...
 
TheDeath said:
They are basically programmed gates. You cannot "dump" them and copy them. Well technically you can dump them but the result is wrong and the equation is not correct.

If you really want to dump them you need to solve the equation, but i'm not going to technical details since is out of my knowledge. The only thing i know is that you can't, not in that easy way at least
Click to expand...
If the device is purely combinatorial (that is to say outputs are just the result of what is thrown on the inputs) you can dump it as a ROM. Then run a small optimisation tool to deduct equations. Not complicated at all.

If the device is registered (outputs contain latches and/or memorize previous states) I can read it for you if you send me the whole cart (need it for testing, I'm using a hand coded brute-force tool of my own).
 
They should be completely combinatorial , but at least on killing blade there is some extra voodoo not covered by a simple dump, either equations on the OE, or a latch for something. Unfortunately my Bee Storm is in a different country at the moment, otherwise I'd have a look...
 
@stt1 any change you could dump your PAL (u14 and u15) chips and let @Fluffy @Apocalypse work their magic with them? I have only that one which works and can be dumbed, we would still be "u14" chip short since mine says "over voltage" when read.
 
Fluffy said:
but at least on killing blade there is some extra voodoo not covered by a simple dump, either equations on the OE, or a latch for something.
Click to expand...
Not really a problem for me. Still updating the analysing tool but it's been a while since I've found an unsupported pattern (last update was for an unbalanced counter/decounter pattern, sneaky).
 
@Apocalypse I dunno if it's suitable for this particular chip, or your tool(s) somethings you can share, but I would dump this chip if I could (and really any/all other GALs in my collection). But I'm not thrilled at the idea of shipping out probably dozens of pcbs to you! I'd rather risk de-soldering them then have them inevitably die on their own.
 
ekorz said:
@Apocalypse I dunno if it's suitable for this particular chip, or your tool(s) somethings you can share, but I would dump this chip if I could (and really any/all other GALs in my collection).
Click to expand...
PEEL18CV8? Easy peasy. :D
ekorz said:
But I'm not thrilled at the idea of shipping out probably dozens of pcbs to you! I'd rather risk de-soldering them then have them inevitably die on their own.
Click to expand...
Thing is the dumping algorithm, analysis tool, etc are all hand made. I can't guarantee the reversed equations are good 100% of the time. I will probably find new patterns, possible optimisations, etc.
twistedsymphony said:
Similarly, any PALs/GALs in my collection (https://www.arcade-museum.com/members/member_detail.php?member_id=448491) that need dumping let me know, I have a 27c020 adapter so for those chips that aren't unlocked and aren't registered I can send along the bruteforced file.
Click to expand...
While dumping the chip and reversing it isn't long, I then make sure to test it thoroughly, usually by playing a few levels of the game, sometimes the entire game when the said chip is related to special behaviour happening only upon special setups or in later levels. That is time consuming...
 
Apocalypse said:
PEEL18CV8? Easy peasy. :D Thing is the dumping algorithm, analysis tool, etc are all hand made. I can't guarantee the reversed equations are good 100% of the time. I will probably find new patterns, possible optimisations, etc.While dumping the chip and reversing it isn't long, I then make sure to test it thoroughly, usually by playing a few levels of the game, sometimes the entire game when the said chip is related to special behaviour happening only upon special setups or in later levels.

That is time consuming...
Click to expand...
Sounds like... you could use some help!? :D
 
Just a quick thought: Do you have a continuity tester, and can you check the connections for U14?

PGM Cartridge pinout

If we're lucky and it (mostly) controls the T-ROM I could give you some equations to try.

You can get fresh ATF22V10 from https://www.digikey.co.uk/short/z5bvvn
And you'll need WinCUPL from https://www.microchip.com/design-centers/fpgas-and-plds/splds-cplds/pld-design-resources to compile the equations into a .jed file.

Edit:
The BIOS checks the ROM header before it boots the game, otherwise it goes directly into the service menu. Also, text is displayed from the T-ROM, so if we can get that to work we may get at least an error message working.
 
Last edited:
Fluffy said:
Just a quick thought: Do you have a continuity tester, and can you check the connections for U14?

PGM Cartridge pinout

If we're lucky and it (mostly) controls the T-ROM I could give you some equations to try.

You can get fresh ATF22V10 from https://www.digikey.co.uk/short/z5bvvn
And you'll need WinCUPL from https://www.microchip.com/design-centers/fpgas-and-plds/splds-cplds/pld-design-resources to compile the equations into a .jed file.

Edit:
The BIOS checks the ROM header before it boots the game, otherwise it goes directly into the service menu. Also, text is displayed from the T-ROM, so if we can get that to work we may get at least an error message working.
Click to expand...
Yea I have a good multimeter. I can check tomorrow which pins go from the u14 to those larger EPROMS. I let you know when I have checked them!
 
nassekova said:
@stt1 any change you could dump your PAL (u14 and u15) chips and let @Fluffy @Apocalypse work their magic with them? I have only that one which works and can be dumbed, we would still be "u14" chip short since mine says "over voltage" when read.
Click to expand...
Maybe I could - time is at the moment problem. Running mostly out of it constantly.
 
nassekova said:
Yea I have a good multimeter. I can check tomorrow which pins go from the u14 to those larger EPROMS. I let you know when I have checked them!
Click to expand...
The connections will most likely go to the surface mount ROM at U21. And I need the connections to the cartridge connector as well.
 
Ok so here is my "artistic view" how they connect :rolleyes:

Corner slots connect to a lot of places so I kept them on this different picture. I think they are some kind of ground spots (at least the one that goes to capacitors leg).
bee_u14_firstlast.jpeg


And here are the rest! The one with the grey arrow goes to cartridge edge on the other side of the cartridge. All others are on this side. Ask me if something is not clear, just did it with Mac picture editor...
bee_u14_others.jpeg

The slots which are empty did not connect to edge nor that SMD chip U21.
 
Thank you, translated into a pinout this is:
2 TA18
3 TA19
4 TA20
5 TA21
6 TA22
14 INT_T_ROM_OE
15 T_ROM_OE
16 I_TA18
17 I_TA19
18 I_TA20
19 I_TA21

I'll try to give you a GAL file tonight after work.
 
Thank you so much! I'll be gone couple of days starting tomorrow and when I get back I need to order bunch of those chips. But when I get them I try that and let you guys know the results!
 
Back in action! I got those PAL chips today and tried @Fluffys .jed file. At first I just got mix of colors but second boot gave me this "Illegal Instruction" screen! So progress? :D

Chips
PALs.jpeg


Stack trace:
illegal.jpeg
 
This means it is actually executing code from the cartridge and then crashes. The program counter is in the exception vector table, so maybe a null pointer?

If you don't mind tracing the connections to the other GAL we can try to give you some replacement, in case there is bitrot in some of the equations. This one is driving the SRAM buffer and the latches, together with EPROM mapping, so it is going to be more complicated to find all connections.

I think @GC8TECH mentioned that the SRAM can get bad as well? It may be easiest to replace simple things first, though.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top