ImportantBet
Grand Master
- Thread starter Paranoid_Andy
- Start date
Paranoid_Andy
Enthusiast
@XtraSmiley No worries on the confusion. When it comes to electronics already being complicated and then some meanings having overlapping words to express them it can get kinda messy lol. I'm slowly making sense of it all though so I'm happy to be making progress.
@Hackcell Interesting information you have there. Thank you for the links. I don't know if they can fully assist me but I think they are good for learning regardless.
@ImportantBet I saw that page as well! It's been very helpful as a guideline going forward. Thank you!
@Hackcell Interesting information you have there. Thank you for the links. I don't know if they can fully assist me but I think they are good for learning regardless.
@ImportantBet I saw that page as well! It's been very helpful as a guideline going forward. Thank you!
Paranoid_Andy
Enthusiast
@XtraSmiley
I managed to get TMNT dialed in to perfection. I'm so happy with it! I'll post some images to show the difference. I pointed out some of the more obvious differences but if you look closely there's plenty more. The extra pixels on the HP bars is one of the first things I noticed when testing.
The scanline settings are for purposes of showing the differences. It can be seen with them off as well but I feel they really help show exactly what's going on. I used Line 5x Generic & Optimal.
If you want to try my settings lemme know and I'll post em.
1 game down.. lots more to go lol.
Thanks everybody
I managed to get TMNT dialed in to perfection. I'm so happy with it! I'll post some images to show the difference. I pointed out some of the more obvious differences but if you look closely there's plenty more. The extra pixels on the HP bars is one of the first things I noticed when testing.
The scanline settings are for purposes of showing the differences. It can be seen with them off as well but I feel they really help show exactly what's going on. I used Line 5x Generic & Optimal.
If you want to try my settings lemme know and I'll post em.
1 game down.. lots more to go lol.
Thanks everybody
XtraSmiley
Legendary
Wow, I DO see a difference, but weirdly enough, I think I like the generic look more, it fills the square!
Please post your settings, I'll try them both on my OLED and take similar pics to post. I can do TMNT or anything else you want. Let's get some comparisons. '
Do a post without the scan lines, I guess I'm not 100% sure of what I'm seeing here, are the pixels just smaller (ie sharper)?
Please post your settings, I'll try them both on my OLED and take similar pics to post. I can do TMNT or anything else you want. Let's get some comparisons. '
Do a post without the scan lines, I guess I'm not 100% sure of what I'm seeing here, are the pixels just smaller (ie sharper)?
Paranoid_Andy
Enthusiast
@XtraSmiley
No need to worry about the square being filled or not. That's just my scanline settings. You can make them literal perfect squares if you want assuming it's dialed in correctly. The big thing I've learned about sample rate is that it's more about where each pixel lines up on the screen rather than the shape of them so much. Too low sample rate will get you pixels too far apart and outright missing information. Too high will cause overlap. I believe this is because in a sense "too much" information was gathered as seen in the pictures above.
Here's a great video I found explaining sample rate:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLmB1qcXT4Q
Here's another photo to show a misaligned sample rate:
It's not the shape that's so important here but where the pixels are placed. There's supposed to be a clear black gap between each vertical line. You can see it correct on the left and right side, but the middle is all messed up because the sample rate is too high there and it's putting additional blue and green pixels where none should exist. A correct SR would fix that and make it completely uniform.
Here's my settings I'm using. I'm on a 2 player Japanese PCB but that may not matter. You may need to slightly adjust your sample rate differently than mine but it should be very close if it's not exact. I used the cross pattern in the test menu of the game to help dial it in properly since it does a good job showing the flaws especially when the scanlines are on.
By the way, to clarify. Although I'm passionate about getting pixel perfection for my games, that's me. If other people want to use other settings that aren't "pixel perfect" or whatever, that's fine. I certainly don't wanna sound preachy about it. It's video games, just have fun
No need to worry about the square being filled or not. That's just my scanline settings. You can make them literal perfect squares if you want assuming it's dialed in correctly. The big thing I've learned about sample rate is that it's more about where each pixel lines up on the screen rather than the shape of them so much. Too low sample rate will get you pixels too far apart and outright missing information. Too high will cause overlap. I believe this is because in a sense "too much" information was gathered as seen in the pictures above.
Here's a great video I found explaining sample rate:
Here's another photo to show a misaligned sample rate:
It's not the shape that's so important here but where the pixels are placed. There's supposed to be a clear black gap between each vertical line. You can see it correct on the left and right side, but the middle is all messed up because the sample rate is too high there and it's putting additional blue and green pixels where none should exist. A correct SR would fix that and make it completely uniform.
Here's my settings I'm using. I'm on a 2 player Japanese PCB but that may not matter. You may need to slightly adjust your sample rate differently than mine but it should be very close if it's not exact. I used the cross pattern in the test menu of the game to help dial it in properly since it does a good job showing the flaws especially when the scanlines are on.
By the way, to clarify. Although I'm passionate about getting pixel perfection for my games, that's me. If other people want to use other settings that aren't "pixel perfect" or whatever, that's fine. I certainly don't wanna sound preachy about it. It's video games, just have fun
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XtraSmiley
Legendary
Not all man, this is great information! I have both a US and Japanese TMNT, so let me pull them, pull out the HAS and OSSC and test this out. I'll give you my thoughts as well!
advans14
Professional
in my opinion it looks too CRISP and perfect and more importantly missing actual information. the artificial scan lines always look bad in my opinion. again, opinion as i like deep dive discussions and tweaking settings myself. i also tend to use the generic settings, in the sense the source is left alone, but it is all subjective, "perfection".
pixel art was original made to take into account these errors, and artificial scan lines make it worse and in some ways "un correct" the look. a good example of this is color dmd for pinballs and the different modes that make it look bad vs some nice phosphor burning dmds. i only play on cabs though, so i tend not to obsess on faking the look.
pixel art was original made to take into account these errors, and artificial scan lines make it worse and in some ways "un correct" the look. a good example of this is color dmd for pinballs and the different modes that make it look bad vs some nice phosphor burning dmds. i only play on cabs though, so i tend not to obsess on faking the look.
Hackcell
Grand Master
I love how it looks! Did you get to these numbers by trail and error or by any sort of math formula? I have to do the same with a few PCBs:@XtraSmiley
No need to worry about the square being filled or not. That's just my scanline settings. You can make them literal perfect squares if you want assuming it's dialed in correctly. The big thing I've learned about sample rate is that it's more about where each pixel lines up on the screen rather than the shape of them so much. Too low sample rate will get you pixels too far apart and outright missing information. Too high will cause overlap. I believe this is because in a sense "too much" information was gathered as seen in the pictures above.
Here's a great video I found explaining sample rate:View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLmB1qcXT4Q
Here's another photo to show a misaligned sample rate:
It's not the shape that's so important here but where the pixels are placed. There's supposed to be a clear black gap between each vertical line. You can see it correct on the left and right side, but the middle is all messed up because the sample rate is too high there and it's putting additional blue and green pixels where none should exist. A correct SR would fix that and make it completely uniform.
Here's my settings I'm using. I'm on a 2 player Japanese PCB but that may not matter. You may need to slightly adjust your sample rate differently than mine but it should be very close if it's not exact. I used the cross pattern in the test menu of the game to help dial it in properly since it does a good job showing the flaws especially when the scanlines are on.
By the way, to clarify. Although I'm passionate about getting pixel perfection for my games, that's me. If other people want to use other settings that aren't "pixel perfect" or whatever, that's fine. I certainly don't wanna sound preachy about it. It's video games, just have fun
PGM
X-Men
Kickle Cubicle
Solomon's Key
Killer Instinct
Dyna Blaster
Outzone
Kiki Kaikai
Kicker
Legend of Kage
Battletoads
Paranoid_Andy
Enthusiast
Math with a bit of trial and error as well. For example I checked the release date of TMNT and compared it to other games around the time with known clocks. I took a guess at 6.00MHz for TMNT and after using the cross pattern to really dial it in, it turns out my TMNT is 5.99MHz. If you can get the dot/pixel clock then use the math in my first post, along with a bit of adjusting possibly and you can get every pixel in exactly the right place.
It's really something to see the image go from out of sync to perfectly dialed in. I used 4:3 generic for years not realizing just how much I was missing out on. It wasn't until I was tweaking the Sega Genesis for makeshift dithering effects when I decided to actually go optimal mode instead. It was a total .. game changer. Sorry I couldn't help it XD
If the flat panel is locked to 60hz and you try to play Taito F3 which is 57hz, what happens? I'm guessing you get screen tearing?
Unless scalers nowadays (and your monitor) support VRR output and it outputs at the 57hz? That would be cool.
Maybe consider a nice CRT, maybe even a 50inch rear projection crt TV if you need a big screen.
Unless scalers nowadays (and your monitor) support VRR output and it outputs at the 57hz? That would be cool.
Maybe consider a nice CRT, maybe even a 50inch rear projection crt TV if you need a big screen.
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Paranoid_Andy
Enthusiast
The F3 is an interesting one. It will work just fine on the OSSC with most games. How the OSSC works it's magic to make it work though, I'm not sure. You do need to perform a mod to the OSSC for that board specifically but it's an easy mod imo and works great.
The only game off the top of my head that has issues is Riding Fight when it swaps resolutions the screen goes black for a moment. To my knowledge, this can be solved with a frame-buffer but I don't want lag so I play that one on CRT.
I actually have MANY CRTs as well heh. I use both a CRT and OLED for my retro gaming depending on the game and my mood. I've also been putting a lot of work into the OLED quality setup because as we all know, the CRTs are dying and heavy and I'm not getting any younger so I'm planning for the future of my gaming setup and spine lol.
Sounds like you know what you are doing 
I have no clue on scalers myself but have seen a lot of videos about the new retro tink 4k which looks good.
In my mind, if the scaler output and TV panel both suppprt VRR then that is surely the best you can hope for?
I love the way you can run F3 games in groovymame on a VRR monitor at 57hz. But does any scaler support VRR output yet? Not even sure the new tink 4k does as it seems to be locked to 4k60 or 4k50.
I have no clue on scalers myself but have seen a lot of videos about the new retro tink 4k which looks good.
In my mind, if the scaler output and TV panel both suppprt VRR then that is surely the best you can hope for?
I love the way you can run F3 games in groovymame on a VRR monitor at 57hz. But does any scaler support VRR output yet? Not even sure the new tink 4k does as it seems to be locked to 4k60 or 4k50.
XtraSmiley
Legendary
OK, so... I tried TMNT (Japanese 2 player ROMS), and first, I don't have your exact same settings options, maybe I need to update my OSSC, but when I did put in what you had, the middle is all blurry while the edges are super sharp. I also get flickering pixels at 5x with 1920x1200 as well as 256x240 optim. settings.
What FW are you running on your OSSC an also, can there be differences in PCBs I wonder? There shouldn't be, right? Maybe it's my LG OLED not liking to resolution? I'm running a C9 so it's sort of older.
I didn't get this sharp like yours, but I DEFINITELY see a difference now. When I tried your settings the edges were sharp as shit, much sharper than the generic settings.
Oh one more, on your "here's another photo to show misaligned" what is that setting on? I'd like to see some bars like that to mess with it.
What FW are you running on your OSSC an also, can there be differences in PCBs I wonder? There shouldn't be, right? Maybe it's my LG OLED not liking to resolution? I'm running a C9 so it's sort of older.
I didn't get this sharp like yours, but I DEFINITELY see a difference now. When I tried your settings the edges were sharp as shit, much sharper than the generic settings.
Oh one more, on your "here's another photo to show misaligned" what is that setting on? I'd like to see some bars like that to mess with it.
Interesting topic.
Does anyone know if Sega Mega Play works well with an OSSC ?
I've tested in 256x224, let OSSC default profile, turned “Allow TVP HPLL2x” option to Off, moved “Analog sync Vth” option to 146 mV to get something displayed, but it’s still instable.
What would be the more accurate settings to try to get this hardware stable ?
Does anyone know if Sega Mega Play works well with an OSSC ?
I've tested in 256x224, let OSSC default profile, turned “Allow TVP HPLL2x” option to Off, moved “Analog sync Vth” option to 146 mV to get something displayed, but it’s still instable.
What would be the more accurate settings to try to get this hardware stable ?
BroadwayJose
Professional
@Paranoid_Andy can you detail the OSSC mod and settings necessary for the Taito F3 capture?
Have you installed the latest Beta fw ?
It seems it's more stable, no more sync issue with most of boards.
Details there : https://videogameperfection.com/forums/topic/ossc-v1-xx-series-beta-firmware/
The hardware mod to install it is explained in the link (removing a resistor and installing a wire between TVP7002 and FPGA). Red LED won’t work after the modification, but equivalent indicator is now encoded into the green LED.
BroadwayJose
Professional
I've done a few tests (I use Vega Jr. supergun, LG C2 42" OLED TV, Genesis 1 RGB cable and OSSC 1.6 with 1.06 Beta fw) :
CPS-1
Banpresto PCB (Denjin Makai 2)
Sega System 18
PGM
Namco System 2
I don't happen to get Sega Mega Play to sync well, and AtomisWave doesn't sync at all.
I don't happen to get Sega Mega Play to sync well, and AtomisWave doesn't sync at all.
Attachments
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XtraSmiley
Legendary
All these games already sync with the OSSC in generic mode, were you able to dial things in like the OP did? If so, post those settings please.
