A setup like this will probably not get much use. Especially with the control stick resting on that wobbly shelf.
- Thread starter djsheep
- Start date
A setup like this will probably not get much use. Especially with the control stick resting on that wobbly shelf.
I always enjoy DF videos but this one was a miss. To us in the arcade community that wobbly shelf, and LCD monitor were the start of the problems in that video. I can understand it being useful for quick research purposes that he might do later with the mister for videos but as something to play on it was ridiculous. Still, have a de10 nano sitting in box behind me. Will get around to it someday and use it for all the stuff I know I will never buy like old PC emulation or arcade games I'll likely never want to buy myself.
XtraSmiley
Legendary
EDITED to keep on topic. He doesn't like the video, I also have issues with it, but I think Digital Foundry puts out great stuff and I think supporting their channel is good for gamers! Ignore his "arcade" set up in the video, he's a PC and console guy so it's going to sound lame to us on A-P, but rather check out his comparisons to MiSTer and MAME. That's interesting!
Last edited:
XtraSmiley
Legendary
Agree. I think they only way to get MiSTer lag free would be the SNAC controller setup, and proper core development, and that would only cover the MiSTer, you'd still have the lag introduced with modern displays (unless you go CRT).
That being said, this vide was good, but a miss for hardcore arcade peeps like us. John is focused on PC and console games. Ultimately I really wish he had stuck to what makes his videos great, the comparison and analysis portion, like where he started with MAME and MiSTer.
He needs to get some PCBs and do a followup.
Not dragging anyone down, but me, personally, I am not a fan whatsoever of influencers, streamers or retro gaming celebs. There shouldnāt be a problem with that ideology. Not everyone needs to bow down to these people. Theyāre a massive part of the price hike in retro gaming gear, shill product placement and fake news. I donāt expect them to give two shits about my opinion either. Nor could I give two shits if they didnāt like whatever I did or said either. I guess thatās what an opinion is. Itās no different from me saying I donāt like watching romantic comedies. No asshurt feelings. It is what it is.
Also, FWIW, I donāt really mess with social media either, deleted my personal Facebook in 2012 and my Instagram like 4 or 5 years ago. Granted I do have Twitter and an old Facebook āpageā but I donāt use it these days for much, if any, self promo at all. Anyways. Continue on.
Also, FWIW, I donāt really mess with social media either, deleted my personal Facebook in 2012 and my Instagram like 4 or 5 years ago. Granted I do have Twitter and an old Facebook āpageā but I donāt use it these days for much, if any, self promo at all. Anyways. Continue on.
So much this right here. These dudes are like the guy who discovers a hidden parking spot near work, and then proceed to tell the whole god damn office about it.
XtraSmiley
Legendary
Its true, get your ass over here...
Attachments
I thought the entire draw of the MiSTer was the ultra low lag. If it's so laggy you can feel it then I'm not nearly as interested in it, that's kind of disturbing.
Are people testing the lag so we have numbers and not just personal impressions?
No human being alive is capable of noticing 2ms of lag. If you're playing on a 'modern' display with more lag than that you're just playing on a bad display, stop using your TV or crappy converter or whatever is giving you bad numbers.
It's time that we stop pushing these myths about LCD lag. CRTs are wonderful in their own way, I own 8 myself, but the input lag issue has been solved for years.
All the drama...
SNK-NEO-GEO
Enlightened
ā only way to get MiSTer lag free would be the SNAC controller setup, and proper core development, and that would only cover the MiSTerā
I have not tried the SNAC and the cores that support SNAC, I donāt even know which cores do. I would love to test that out one day
..I play my mister on a CRT with the Saturn retrobits USB and the USB hub from a MiSter setup that I purchased from a member here. There is lag and thatās why I donāt play NES on it but I have no problems playing on the NT mini. I can confidently say that thereās less lag on my MiSter Setup than my GroovyMame setup. I would love DF to test GroovyMame, Mister and real PCB on the CPS cores.
This is my opinion and findings so your miles might very.
I have not tried the SNAC and the cores that support SNAC, I donāt even know which cores do. I would love to test that out one day
..I play my mister on a CRT with the Saturn retrobits USB and the USB hub from a MiSter setup that I purchased from a member here. There is lag and thatās why I donāt play NES on it but I have no problems playing on the NT mini. I can confidently say that thereās less lag on my MiSter Setup than my GroovyMame setup. I would love DF to test GroovyMame, Mister and real PCB on the CPS cores.This is my opinion and findings so your miles might very.
XtraSmiley
Legendary
MiSTer's goal is to get as close as possible to a 1 for 1 recreation of the original hardware. Some hardware had "lag" built in from the factory (like a famous shooter many love). If (when) a game like this makes it into MiSTer's cores, the lag would also be included, that's the projects goal. Some software emulation, like RetroArch has a mode (I think it's called run-ahead) which aim is to even out the lag or reduce it using software that alters how the software of the original operates.
I'm not making a judgement call on which is better, they are both great for their own reasons.
As for testing, this is a controller test (using USB) for MiSTer that is pretty good:
https://t.co/x38tvtwuyr?amp=1
But this doesn't measure the core lag itself. That's something I hope DF eventually does, rather than just compare MiSTer and MAME.
As for your LCD comment, I think one thing you might have left off is settings on the emulation (as in using the wrong refresh for your display type) and setting on the TV itself (not being in game mode, motion control, etc) can strongly affect lag on modern displays. And despite everyone here being a genius when it comes to this stuff, that's half the questions you see for people new to the scene trying to figure out why Mario's jumps are slow.
Can a human alive be capable of noticing 2ms of lag? No idea man, I can't even 1cc ONE of my damn shmps that I own.
As for drama between me and @djsheep? Nah, we're cool and I've just watched a DJ video of his from 2003 on his YT and he kicks ass!
Last edited:
XtraSmiley
Legendary
For sure, have you checked your controllers out at https://t.co/x38tvtwuyr?amp=1 to see what lag they add to MiSTer? This may help pin some data down.ā only way to get MiSTer lag free would be the SNAC controller setup, and proper core development, and that would only cover the MiSTerā
I have not tried the SNAC and the cores that support SNAC, I donāt even know which cores do. I would love to test that out one day
This is my opinion and findings so your miles might very.
Also, yeah, DF needs to stop showing us his wall "arcade" and get on this stuff they are great at, analyzing the data. But hey, we're outliers here, I'm sure to most of the audience, his arcade set up was pretty cool.
EDIT: I'll also say, I looked into using real controllers via SNAC and... eh, not worth the effort for me. I use a USB arcade stick and it's good enough for me. I'M the one that's not good enough for DDP!
ARCADE GAMES CANNOT FAIL YOU, YOU CAN ONLY FAIL THEM.
SNK-NEO-GEO
Enlightened
@XtraSmiley - I have and the controller seems to be great
1.045 3.816 0.348 0.505 YES 0079:0011 MiSTer Addons 5/25/2020 Controller 6 3.05
211
Retro-Bit Saturn Wired X-Input Wired Wired USB 1 ms YES 2010 93.58% 1.071 4.096 0.340 0.540 YES 045e:028e
1.045 3.816 0.348 0.505 YES 0079:0011 MiSTer Addons 5/25/2020 Controller 6 3.05
211
Retro-Bit Saturn Wired X-Input Wired Wired USB 1 ms YES 2010 93.58% 1.071 4.096 0.340 0.540 YES 045e:028e
XtraSmiley
Legendary
Yeah, for the cost of switching to real controllers via SNAC to kill that 1 ms of lag... probably not worth it @SNK-NEO-GEO. I'd save the money for arcade PCBs!
SNK-NEO-GEO
Enlightened
I have a few toys in the house but 80% of my gaming is the NES. I am very familiar with that system and the games and that is why I noticed the lag. I would think the same for PCBs users.. a none gamer or someone thatās not familiar with real hardware, I see why they would use the ālag freeā even though they are using USB but it gets to me when YouTube say that.
People not knowing how to set things up is one thing, but here where we're smart about this stuff I do think we should be careful about perpetuating myths about LCDs adding lag. I see people parroting it a lot, they read something on a forum like this and just assume it's true without understanding the actual issue. We understand the physics, we have tools like the Time Sleuth to test things and provide real data, we know the numbers are real.
2ms is the time it takes a CRT to draw 1/8th of the screen. It's just not possible for a human being to perceive it with the naked eye. Even frame perfect timing will work fine with it.
The only way I want a MiSTer is to run it over jamma to a CRT, I don't have any interest in playing it on an LCD myself. But if I did I'd simply plug it into one of my low lag gaming monitors and wouldn't be at all concerned about it as an issue.
Raph_friend
Grand Master
Use daemonbite and you won't see any lag.
I havenāt even tried the MiSTer on HDMI. I can however say using a M30 on a PVM setup or using the MiSTercade, I notice no input lag whatsoever and Iām usually fairly sensitive to it.
The Cave core was proof in the pudding. I have never had luck playing those games using software emulation, however on MiSTer itās as good as youāre gunna get without owning the PCB.
Iām planning to do a side-by-side comparison with the PCB shortly. I wish there was a way to record inputs and replay them in unison over the two.
The Cave core was proof in the pudding. I have never had luck playing those games using software emulation, however on MiSTer itās as good as youāre gunna get without owning the PCB.
Iām planning to do a side-by-side comparison with the PCB shortly. I wish there was a way to record inputs and replay them in unison over the two.
XtraSmiley
Legendary
This would be a good comparison. Can't you use a controller splitter to deliver your inputs live to both simultaneously? Put a camera on both screens (or stream) and then we could see.
Of course this guy knows his way around DDP and says good things as well.
Last edited:
This is the test for me Iām definitely better at shooters using MiSTer on a CRT compared to emulators.
