Why did Kasaski’s CV1000 thread get locked?

[SuperPang]

Afternoon all.

Did you know that there was set to be official re-releases of certain CAVE games on arcade pcbs similar to what Atari did a few years ago? Awesome new anniversary releases with new pcbs, art, BOXES, Etc. That was very near to the manufacturing stage. It took one dickless bootlegger from tariff-town to get the entire series cancelled.

Could you (or someone else) provide a source for this please? Privately, if you like. This is something I'm surprised CAVE didn't do sooner, but I'd also be surprised if they pulled the plug simply because of a few bootlegs to be honest. Collectors would've lapped it up regardless.

With regards to the multi, this is something I'm keeping an eye on, from time to time. As things stand, there's no ban against selling CAVE boots on AO and we had no plans to ban the sale of multis. Our general policy is - if people are clear something's a boot and it hasn't irreparably damaged original hardware, and if the hardware isn't still in production, then it's allowed. By that measure, CV1000 boots and multis are a go, but if CAVE are pulling projects and getting eBay listings taken down, we need to reconsider. I don't want to do that based on hearsay and piss a lot of people off, however.

 

[nem]

There’s rumors that Exa Arcadia has more plans for Cave games; if so, that raises the profile on a Cave Multi even more.

Kiniro is an add-on. It's akin to a flash cart. Flash carts are not illegal. I think everyone can agree that Nintendo are very litigious over their property?

Meanwhile

https://stoneagegamer.com/nintendo/nes/everdrives-flash-carts/
https://stoneagegamer.com/nintendo/snes/everdrives-flash-carts/
https://stoneagegamer.com/nintendo/nintendo-64/everdrives-flash-carts/

Also, someone proactively went after the CV1K repo maker on EBay - he used to have the repros posted there with their own listings but now he only mentions they’re available in the descriptions for the legitimate boards he’s selling.

eBay pulls bootleg listings. Happens with everything.

Did you know that there was set to be official re-releases of certain CAVE games on arcade pcbs similar to what Atari did a few years ago? Awesome new anniversary releases with new pcbs, art, BOXES, Etc. That was very near to the manufacturing stage. It took one dickless bootlegger from tariff-town to get the entire series cancelled.

This doesn't make any sense. Like none. There is no way they stopped doing a re-release because someone in China is selling a dozen bootlegs per month?

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

This doesn't make any sense. Like none. There is no way they stopped doing a re-release because someone in China is selling a dozen bootlegs per month?

Its 100% True. Arcade collectors are a serious niche as it is. There arent as many degrees of separation from the people that make things happen in the arcade world as you would think. Especially now. And when the bootlegs first showed up it wasn't just a dozen a month sold. I suspect the demand is going up again recently too.

 

[Aurich]

People keep making this claim that "CAVE is litigious!", but I have yet to see any evidence of their litigiousness in the wild. Can someone please point to any legal action that CAVE has taken against anyone that isn't the Katana/SDOJ takedown?

I don't think the Katana/SDOJ example is a particularly good one. Those games have been supported in MAME (along with every other Cave game ever) for years, and CAVE did not give one single flippity falafel, despite releasing many of these games on XBox 360 for example. Futari still works in MAME despite the recent console releases .And to state the obvious, we know that CAVE did not send the C&D, that was Shou/EXA.

I too would be curious about some documentation for this.

Because I've heard it for *years*, long before the Exa deal (which tbh didn't seem all that unreasonable, they were trying to sell and operate an arcade title, something we should be in favor of you'd think) and yet it's always "I heard it from my cousin" stuff.

Anyways, the site is run how it's run. I totally get it. I tell people practically on a daily basis in the Ars Technica forums some variation of the same thing. Our house, our rules.

It's just that the main reason I visit here is to see people's cool projects and learn stuff. I don't even care about owning a Cave multi tbh. What's sold or not means nothing to me. It's just disappointing to watch more knowledge drain out of the forum to somewhere else.

 

[nem]

Its 100% True.

Without knowing any of the details it's really hard to say anything over this. I assume it wasn't Cave itself, but some other company wanted to license Cave's games for "official" repros. Kind of like what Retro-Bit is doing for old 16-bit console games.

Probably for the best that they didn't go through with it. Bootlegs being available wouldn't have mattered though, the licensee company, assuming there was one, would have likely priced themselves out anyway. Re-releases never command the same money as originals.

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

With regards to the multi, this is something I'm keeping an eye on, from time to time. As things stand, there's no ban against selling CAVE boots on AO and we had no plans to ban the sale of multis. Our general policy is - if people are clear something's a boot and it hasn't irreparably damaged original hardware, and if the hardware isn't still in production, then it's allowed. By that measure, CV1000 boots and multis are a go, but if CAVE are pulling projects and getting eBay listings taken down, we need to reconsider. I don't want to do that based on hearsay and piss a lot of people off, however.

AO must have really changed their policies on bootlegs in the last 10 years because the way we were treated on AO when we released the CPS2 multi was one reason why we had to start our own forums. In fact we saved a conversation from your mod Cools with you in CC straight up calling us bootleggers and the multi a "bootlegging device" and telling us the multi was not welcomed in AO. In fact even a thread simply discussing the multi was not allowed.

Though honestly he may have lied to us about AOs bootleg policy because he was riding Razoola's dick which happened a lot back in those days.

Anyways, doesn't matter. Water under the bridge and I love the community we've built here. AND OUR 10 YEAR ANNIVERSARY IS COMING UP IN A FEW MONTHS!! This site became so much more than it was first intended to be.

Unfortunately my source for the new CAVE pcb run info doesn't want to get involved so I can't get you proper sources but I definitely didn't make that up. For what it's worth it may not have been CAVE itself re-releasing the pcbs but a license holder.

I do have PM screenshots still of having the CPS2 multi banned from AO though, unfortunately....

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

Probably for the best that they didn't go through with it. Bootlegs being available wouldn't have mattered though, the licensee company, assuming there was one, would have likely priced themselves out anyway. Re-releases never command the same money as originals.

Yeah I doubt they would be cheap. Definitely not cheaper than the boots but here's the thing. These original CAVE pcbs sell for INSANE prices. We can assume these would have sold for less than market value of originals. If anything the bootlegger proved that can be done.

 

[nem]

If anything the bootlegger proved that can be done.

Yes, and therefore if the licensee company decided not to go for it means that the price that they had in mind was considerably more than what the bootlegger is asking.

 

[jepjepjep]

This project by kasaski is similar in spirit to the original CPS2 multi that you guys got so much heat for back in those early days. The multi (cps2 or cv1000) has never been a product for the "collectors". It's been a way for enthusiasts to play on original hardware that would otherwise be too expensive and cumbersome.

That's why this situation stinks. The culture that this forum has cultivated over the past 10 years runs counter to the way you guys have been handling cv1000 multi discussions. Kasaski has been open and transparent about the goals and aims of his project, yet he is being pushed away from the forum.

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

Dude, our policy on CAVE stuff has been in place FOR YEARS. His project is cool. If it was for anything other than CAVE he could sell it here all he wants. We don't have a problem with his project. Only that sales can potentially bring heat on the site. It's easy to say "that will never happen, you're worrying about nothing" when you have no skin in the game. I personally had no problem with his project and wish he didn't decide to completely leave. That was his choice.

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

Yes, and therefore if the licensee company decided not to go for it means that the price that they had in mind was considerably more than what the bootlegger is asking.

Is that it? Or maybe the fact that their potential customers were already buying them from somewhere else also?

 

[leonk]

FWIW, CAVE getting special treatment is not unique. Ask any Neo Geo multi maker on adding support for NG DEV game and see what happens.

It is what it is ..

 

[nem]

Is that it? Or maybe the fact that their potential customers were already buying them from somewhere else also?

Yes, that is it. If there was a licensed product with cardboard and artwork that you could buy from a legitimate store front for comparable money, those few bootlegs would have been dumped in an instant. I think you're seriously overestimating how many bootlegs have been sold and underestimating how much interest there is for reasonably priced Cave boards.

Key word being reasonably.

FWIW, CAVE getting special treatment is not unique. Ask any Neo Geo multi maker on adding support for NG DEV game and see what happens.

It is what it is ..

I don't see the connection. NGDEV is still in the business of making NeoGeo carts (https://shop.ngdevteam.com/product_info.php?products_id=93, Q2 2025), Cave hasn't sold an arcade board in 12 years.

 

[9999 Damage]

I don't see the connection. NGDEV is still in the business of making NeoGeo carts (https://shop.ngdevteam.com/product_info.php?products_id=93, Q2 2025), Cave hasn't sold an arcade board in 12 years.

True. But…

IANAL, but I’ve worked with (and been raised by) corporate lawyers. IP infringement and enforcement is not black-and-white. If a company doesn’t protect its IP in a small case (e.g. ROMs or bootlegs for original hardware), it may get used against them as precedent in a more damaging case (e.g. piracy on modern platforms).

Different companies’ legal and leadership teams may have different assessments of the risk (see also: Nintendo), so comparisons like NGDEV are interesting but not apples-to-apples.

Edit: Similarly, different community admins may have different assessments and appetites for risk. It’s their neck on the line, so they get to make the call.

 

[nem]

Again, flash carts are perfectly legal. Everdrives are sold on Amazon. There is no IP infringement.

NGDEV games are not supported purely out of respect for developers still actively developing. It's the same thing with Bitmap Bureau.

 

[geotrig]

AO must have really changed their policies on bootlegs in the last 10 years because the way we were treated on AO when we released the CPS2 multi was one reason why we had to start our own forums. In fact we saved a conversation from your mod Cools with you in CC straight up calling us bootleggers and the multi a "bootlegging device" and telling us the multi was not welcomed in AO. In fact even a thread simply discussing the multi was not allowed.

Though honestly he may have lied to us about AOs bootleg policy because he was riding Razoola's dick which happened a lot back in those days.

Anyways, doesn't matter. Water under the bridge and I love the community we've built here. AND OUR 10 YEAR ANNIVERSARY IS COMING UP IN A FEW MONTHS!! This site became so much more than it was first intended to be.

Unfortunately my source for the new CAVE pcb run info doesn't want to get involved so I can't get you proper sources but I definitely didn't make that up. For what it's worth it may not have been CAVE itself re-releasing the pcbs but a license holder.

I do have PM screenshots still of having the CPS2 multi banned from AO though, unfortunately....

The problem with the multi at the time is people were killing*(wasn't exactly in community spirit and was vague if they could be reverted back ok at the time ) alot of good cps2 boards were used and converted at the time . Pangs comment above still supports that and is just looking for some clarification if AO should be banning the sale of the multis and aligning with the stance over here. Individual sales of multis have been allowed for a long time.
I'm not sure what bringing up a 10year old grievance achieves on that query at all.Just remember these are all "new" boards been converted and not they are not using original hardware so not so detrimental to good hardware ,I'm not a fan of conversions in general ,even when people "Phoenix'd" their games on purpose or in general but that's just me ,I still like the work gone into all these multis and discussions on hardware and all the work .
I think even a pm to pang might help come to a conclusion on the matter ?

 

[MmSadda]

What show?

Strong pornography

 

[Mitsurugi-w]

Just remember these are all "new" boards been converted and not they are not using original hardware so not so detrimental to good hardware ,I'm not a fan of conversions in general ,even when people "Phoenix'd" their games on purpose or in general but that's just me

Well by this logic the CAVE multi is less ok with AO rules than the cps2 multi was because this mod will be much harder to reverse than the cps2 multi install was. You seem to assume people will only use the repro bootlegs for this multi. We all know that won't be the case. Just as not everyone used an already dead b-board for the cps2 multi and purposely killed live ones, someone will use original CAVE boards for the multi because it's what they already have.

Sounds to me that AOs reasoning for questioning the CAVE multi is exactly the same as the cps2 multi. So whatever your policy for the cps2 multi is the same policy you should have for the CAVE multi. We obviously have different reasons. If AO is not concerned about possible heat from IP holders then I see no reason you shouldn't allow it there. Our concern is not that it's a multi, only the platform it's for.

Also to be clear we won't block individual sales of any CAVE multi (or bootleg, conversion, etc) in our marketplace either. We just don't want to be a base for new sales. We will also allow threads discussing their functionality, installation, and tech support.

 

[hoagtech]

Not the case here. If there was a competing product then that would be the rule that was broken as that is a rule we clearly state. However that rule was not broken.

Look. Bottom line is the mods here have agreed we simply just DO NOT WANT to host certain info. Sometimes to avoid drama. Sometimes to avoid potential legal issues. And sometimes because we just don't want to be associated with that kind of info. For example we do not allow in-depth discussions on hacking ANY PC based hardware. We allow discussions on using multis for those systems but not how to do the hacking to make the actual multi. That's the concession we made for PC hardware threads.

Another decision we made long ago was to restrict talk about CAVE products. We don't support the bootleg pcbs and deleted all info referring to that. We don't allow info on converting original pcbs either. And we won't allow sales of a CAVE multi on our site. This was decided years ago. The time of fruition has just come now.

So with that said and as mentioned before we are working on a solution that is good for Kasaki and within the standards we set for ourselves years ago regarding CAVE.

When you get your multis in the future feel free to post pics etc. here. I'm interested as well. But support and sales won't be allowed here. Sounds like Kasaki already had plans in his head so I expect we will announce the solution sooner rather than later.

In the pursuit of transparency. What is your policy on Cave games?

What is your plan with the development of the Multi by the OP?

Can you firmly denounce the rumors that you and or Darksoft are not selling a Cave Multi right now under the table?

 

[geotrig]

The policy is the same ,Just read Pangs post again above of what is allowed ,if people destroys a good board that would be a block on sales and just be dumb or any mass production would be blocked ,but I agree and have no doubt someone will use a genuine board to convert but until they do it's just speculation ,the comparison to cps2 is a bit off as at the time as there was cheap enough games been bought to kill and no bootleg alternative ,no cave game is cheap in comparison but these boots are available, I have a cps2 multi myself and don't have a problem with them , I had 2 dead boards and a conversion that were candidates to use that I had not got around to Phoenix'ing I used used one for my multi, discussion and transparency are good too many back room deals and shenanigans go on in the arcade hobby for so long that never lead to any good. Kasaki has taken his multi off arcade forums sites anyway by the looks but a courtesy of even pm'ing admins on other forums not just AO on the subject and concerns and issue would be good ,I don't really care I was never getting any of these anyway but ,we are all in the same hobby with mainly the same goals