How to tell the difference between Irem M72, M81, M82, M84, and M85 Hardware

[Hammy]

Your board has not arrived and you are jumping too far ahead and making a lot of assumptions that are not correct.

Honestly, if that's your plan to play all the games just remake the m72, all games are done for it and the chipset is a lot easier. The m84 and it's bootleg is not a good starting point.
m84 has about 4 games running (with my hacks) at the moment, only 2 of them work on the bootleg board.

@caius has been working on the m72 chipset. there is several remaining todo.

 

[natas]

That is interesting what you say. If I understand you right all games run fully on M72 hardware?
No game is using the features of the M82/M84 boards like the extra sprite layer the M82 introduced, row scroll, and a larger tile map?
Tile data from both tile layers now comes from a single set of ROMs vs two as before, I guess this is solved by reorganizing the rom?
Flip bits moved to 2nd word meaning max of 0xffff tiles, this one I do not completely understand beside that there are now more useable tiles?

You surely know about this? https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Arcade-IremM72_MiSTer
Inside you find this: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Arcade-IremM72_MiSTer/blob/main/docs/Irem_M84_schematics.pdf M84-A-A CPU PCB schematic of R-Type II
There is also a schematic called KNACHIP-Hammy.jpg that seems to show the inner schematic from a not further specified 60 Pin KNA Chip likely taken from a Bootleg that does not use the KNA Chip? Is that the KNA91H014?

You now I am new to Arcade PCBs so please correct me when ever I write something incorrect.

Beside some slight sound issue with R-Type all games seem to be running.
That means full schematics including inner working of custom chips needs to be known and replicated as FPGA is a hardware replication not a software emulation.

For my crazy idea of creating a ISA PC version it would be a good idea to use the FPGA implementation as starting point.

Supported Game List:

Name	Region	Notes
R-Type	Japan, US, World
Ninja Spirit	Japan
Image Fight	Japan, World
Gallop - Armed Police Unit	Japan	Emulated MCU.
Legend of Hero Tonma	Japan
Mr. HELI no Daibouken	Japan
Air Duel	Japan, World	Conversion from M81 hardware.
Dragon Breed	Japan	Conversion from M81 hardware.
X-Multiply	Japan	Conversion from M81 hardware.
Daiku no Gensan	Japan	Conversion from M81 hardware. Emulated MCU.
Hammerin' Harry	US, Japan	M84 Hardware.
R-Type II	Japan,World	M84 hardware.

 

[Blio Seri]

That is interesting what you say. If I understand you right all games run fully on M72 hardware?
No game is using the features of the M82/M84 boards like the extra sprite layer the M82 introduced, row scroll, and a larger tile map?

Only Major Title uses the extra sprite layer, no other game makes use of the improved specs.
There's a M72 multi running all M72 and M8x games but Major Title.

 

[natas]

Your list of differences there is just the tip of the iceberg. It's not a simple job unless you know the boards inside out....
I mean, with R type 2 compared to hammering harry for example, the top boards are totally different, the main CPU is setup different(and this is critical) , Address maps changed , bigger graphics roms etc.

The mame driver has most of what we know but there's still lots of info to be added to it, I have not been able to find a mame guy who's interested in adding the irem fixes.
Although the jaleco/ nmk hardwares did get another cleanup recently with a bit of our newer info so never say never.

What kind of fixes are you talking about?

 

[Hammy]

You surely know about this? https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Arcade-IremM72_MiSTer

Yeah, it's not my cup of tea, IMO it's still a bunch of guesswork in most cases although it depends who did the core.
Each "core" would vary in quality and i can't comment on the quality as i cannot understand VHDL.

There is also a schematic called KNACHIP-Hammy.jpg that seems to show the inner schematic from a not further specified 60 Pin KNA Chip likely taken from a Bootleg that does not use the KNA Chip? Is that the KNA91H014?

Yes, thats something i did by compare the bootlegs of vigilante and r type with the originals. It's still maybe not accurate things such as "config pins" if they exist are still unknown and the ram in the real thing would not be that big.

What kind of fixes are you talking about?

All kinds of stuff, ports , video stuff and a bunch of other things. The work is from 2018 and i can't remember much now but when i've got time and a mamedev interested in the driver has time it will get added.
There's lots of known information that's not in these projects yet, i know for sure apocalypse (hopefully) found the same stuff when porting the newer games back to the m72.

Honestly i've got little time for it these days but am willing to help you get the bootleg running as it's fresh in my mind from a few recent repairs.

 

[natas]

I can have a look if I can update mame code. I have the feeling most of this things are inaccuracies where the game works more less as it should on mame even with this inaccuracies in place or are your corrections/informations fixing major bugs?

I had a look to the M72 small top board of R-Type and a full/big M72 top board, it looks like row 6 and 7 of the big board are basically an equivalent of the small board just EPROMs and 2 RAMs.
Row 1 of the big board holds the MCU, row 3 and 4 hold the DPRAMs that are shared between the main CPU and the MCU and the rest are mainly bus transceivers and glue logic.
As the MCU was removed on all M8x boards I would guess the M8x boars are closer to the M72-R-Type than to any other M72 board?

I had a look to the GAL equations of R-Type (M72) ROM board the 4 empty sockets are not functional. Pin 1 COD12, Pin 3 BANK are not used inside the GAL.
!DBEN (debug enable?) seems to disable column A to F of the M72-ROM-C board.
Column H to L are activated independently via A16 and if row 1 or 3 is selected is defined by the status of COD11 what makes sense as this are the sprites.
Row B is mapped to the 1st 128K (0x00000-0x1FFFF).
Row C is mapped to the 2nd 128K (0x20000-0x3FFFF) and if I did not miscalculate to the the last 128K (0xE0000-0xFFFFF) what fits to mame.
Row F the 16K SRAM are mapped behind the ROMs 16K (0x40000-0x43FFF) (if I am not mistaken work RAM can be expanded to 128K and the 16K should be mirrored over this 128K).

M72 R-Type can be converted to a full M72 board with the Multi ROM Board form this thread: https://www.arcade-projects.com/thr...ed-multi-rtype-supported-oled-softdips.20063/
That means the top board will be exchanged to a replica of the M72-C-A this replica will make it a 13-in-1 board.

 

[natas]

Hello I am new here and hope I selected the right place for my question:
What about the bootleg PCBs of IREM games how do they fit into the picture?
If I understood it right they played a major role in understanding the IREM boards especially the custom chips.
I just bought one of Hammerin' Harry got it for 70€ (+30€ international shipping) not exactly cheap but not bad I think for a supposedly running board.
I attached the pictures from eBay (did not receive it jet).
This board is M84 based to my understanding is that right?
I had a look to the mame ROMs of my board hharryb and hharryu (M84) the main CPU ROMs 2x 128k seem to be different so I tried to exchange this two ROMs in the ZIP file with the ones from the M84 version and run mame from command line to get past the CRC check. And surprisingly the game started (only played 1-2 min). Would that mean the bootleg runs with the original ROM set?
This is my first Arcade PCB so I just started with that. And I am sorry if I asked questions that are already answered multiple times please give me a pointer where.
I have seen pictures of a board that looks like mine but modded to run R-Type II that is actually what I want to do with this board mod it to run R-Type II ROMs.
I have seen there is a project in progress by @Hammy M84 Conversions.
How high is the chance that this conversion roms will run as well? And if not what would be need to make them work.
I am aware the layout is completely different but starting form schematics I should be able to create a PCB layout that fits to the different ROM socket location.
I found the schematics of the M72 but not for M84 or my bootleg board, does anyone have them and is willing to share?
Thank you very much.
Please ignore my bad spelling and bad grammar I am from Germany and tried to write this without the help of translation tools.

I received the boards I and dumped the ROMs. I can confirm the ROMs of the boards marked RABEN-1190A/B/C HAMMERIN HARRY are identical to MAME HHARRYB.ZIP
It seems the original dumper did not find the numbers from some ROMs on the middle (MainCPU) PCB.
On the bottom PCB the ROM sockets are soldered 180° to silkscreen and EPROMs.
As I did not receive my Supergun jet I can not do any further tests for now.
Fort the meantime I will:
- create a map of the boards (parts location and type)
- try to figure out what parts corespondent to the custom chips used on the IREM board maybe I can draw a schematic for replacements for of the missing (not public documented) custom chips.
- get some flash ROMs
- check if I can also confirm the two PROMs and the PAL
- try to reconstruct the Pinout of the PCB connectors

As this board seems to be more like a M82 or M84 I assume replacing the ROM board with a M72-C-A multi replica (ignoring that the connectors are different) will make it M72 like.
The Bootleg should be a good starting point if someone plans to do a replica of the other two M72 boards, as the Bootleg is not using any custom Chips

A photo of the middle board without the Eprom board mounted, for the other two boards see my post above.

 

[Hammy]

I received the boards I and dumped the ROMs

Excellent! Always worth looking.

- create a map of the boards (parts location and type)

Waste of time...

try to figure out what parts corespondent to the custom chips used on the IREM board maybe I can draw a schematic for replacements for of the missing (not public documented) custom chips.

I already told you that this board has errors and is not worth using as a base.

- check if I can also confirm the two PROMs and the PAL

@caius / @Porchy and me already did these:
https://wiki.pldarchive.co.uk/index.php?title=Hammerin'_Harry_(bootleg)

As this board seems to be more like a M82 or M84 I assume replacing the ROM board with a M72-C-A multi replica (ignoring that the connectors are different) will make it M72 like.
The Bootleg should be a good starting point if someone plans to do a replica of the other two M72 boards, as the Bootleg is not using any custom Chips

Just get r type 1 - philko bootleg and go from there (it's a 100% good copy), Or... just wait for caius to finish off his chips work.

this hammering harry is not the board to do this from, the DMA is fucked and m84 is nothing like m72 really.

A photo

I have 6 of these now,
and know the board very well.
It's got design errors , not worth reversing anything from. Good for a bit of conversion / messing around that's about it.

I love the enthusiasm, but calm down, slow down and listen, i know what i say is not what anybody wants to hear, but it's the truth
Many of the tasks you are thinking to do on this board has already been tested over the years.

-Carl

 

[natas]

I tried to find the PROMs that are mentioned in the Mame zip. I can only find a hand full of PALs on the board instead, but also not the ones Caius and Porchy dumped. They seem to have used registered ones in a couple of locations also noted on Silkscreen.
Okay, I understand it's not compatible to M84.
That brings me to the question is Hammerin' Harry fully playable?
What about the conversion to R-Type II is that working enough to finish the game or are you going Stück in the middle of the game?
My goal is it to come to that point where I fully understand what is wrong with this thing.
I don't think I will be able to fix that issue.
But as long as I learn something and understand a bit more how that TTL monster works it's not a waste for me.

 

[Hammy]

I tried to find the PROMs that are mentioned in the Mame zip. I can only find a hand full of PALs on the board instead, but also not the ones Caius and Porchy dumped. They seem to have used registered ones in a couple of locations also noted on Silkscreen.

Mame is a bit of a mess on M 8x / M72, a good introduction to mame would be to correct the mame files names, proms etc, and add the correct locations.

That brings me to the question is Hammerin' Harry fully playable?

Yes but with a very minor glitch, NOT DMA related (clock related?).

What about the conversion to R-Type II is that working enough to finish the game or are you going Stück in the middle of the game?

The continue screen is broken, due to the bad DMA the gameplay is ok.

My goal is it to come to that point where I fully understand what is wrong with this thing.

Well, if you can fix the DMA problem , it should make it perfect.
The other problems (tilebank stuff) i have already figured out and is needed for r type 2 to run.

The clock glitch should be easy , i think HCT chips in place of LS may do the trick.

 

[natas]

I just found an opportunity to get 20x new SST 39SF020A DIP32 for 25€ including shipment in Germany that should give me a good base for experimenting.
@Hammy I would be happy if you can guide me a little by telling me which (custom) chips are in charge for handling the DMA and if there are schematics available that are not here: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Arcade-IremM72_MiSTer/tree/main/docs
Does Hammerin' Harry not use DMA? Or is the ROM modified to work around the issues.

 

[Hammy]

@Hammy I would be happy if you can guide me a little by telling me which (custom) chips are in charge for handling the DMA

No idea, otherwise would of fixed it

if there are schematics available that are not here: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Arcade-IremM72_MiSTer/tree/main/docs

Yeah, i got my own stuff on file, maybe i'll release something a xmas / the new year

Does Hammerin' Harry not use DMA? Or is the ROM modified to work around the issues.

Can't remember, if yes, it's minimal or does not need high speed or something...
I do remember cosmic cops used it a lot, and is very broken on here.

 

[natas]

@caius / @Porchy and me already did these:
https://wiki.pldarchive.co.uk/index.php?title=Hammerin'_Harry_(bootleg)

I have some doubt about the untested PALs from the lower board.
The silk screen say 16R8 and 16R4 and the PALs used on my board are registered.
Maybe I am wrong, but registered PALs usually can not be bruteforced.
The replacement GAL is not registered.
I will try if the GALs works, but i need to order some GALs and sockets first.
So far I had a closer look to the smaller board marked RABEN-1190B it seems to be basically what can be found on the R-Type schematics page M72-B-D 4/8 and page M72-B-D 7/8.
The main difference is the 2x KNA6034201 have been replaced with 6x 74LS166 connected like the two above on each page of the schematics.
The PAL seems to be what you find on M72-B-D Page 8/8 on the left upper part.