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Just found out about IGS PGM, lots of questions

hombreimaginario

hombreimaginario

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Hello everyone.

I found out about the PGM literally a couple weeks ago, watched a few videos, got strangely fascinated and the more I read about it, the more I realize there's so much I don't understand about this board. So my apologies in advance if most of these questions have been answered a hundred times before, but I stil thought this would be a good place to get some reliable info from people who know their sh*t.

First of all, while I've seen dozens of different MVS consolizations over the years, I've only come across a couple consolized PGMs on places like Ebay. Is it a pain in the ass to consolize, is there simply not a very high demand or is it just that the arcade board itself is quite convenient to use and play as it is?

On the other hand, I read that the PGM games took some time to properly dump and emulate because different games feature different chips on the PCBs. So how easy is it to emulate nowadays? (I'm talking about the first PGM, not PGM 2, etc).

Also, while multigame carts are quite common for MVS, I think they're not nearly as common for the PGM. I've seen 2-in-1 and 4-in-1 carts on Aliexpress, but I don't know if there are other compilations or solutions out there...?

Also related to that, is it easy to make repros of these carts? Or are some of the games still not reproducible?

Last, what are "Fluffy" carts? 🤔

Thanks in advance! :)
 
  • Consolizing in itself is kinda pointless, most people in the Arcade Hobby have a Cab and/or a Super Gun so simply no point in investing Time and Money to make the board do something they already can do. I would claim that consolizing MVS boards is only a thing because they AES exist and people wanted a cheaper alternative (Also the Neo Geo is the only Arcade Board with a library big enough where it makes even a little bit of sense)
  • I Have a PGM with almost all Games i want so not sure about the quality of the emulation but the couple of times i tried it it was as easy and good as the "other" stuff (aka. you can play/enjoy it)
  • Supposedly someone is working on a multi cart but how long till that's ready no clue
  • Compilation:
  • Regarding conversions you basically answered your own question already, the carts are somewhat unique between games so you cant convert any game easily to any other game and for the ones that are easy to do its simpler to just do everything from "scratch", which brings us to Fluffy Carts.
  • Fluffy is a User who created plans for pcbs (gerbers) and shared them so anybody can just order them online if he wants to make his own Cave cart (all Cave carts are "bootlegs" since those games were never released as Carts only as Pcb's). Why does that matter so much with/why do people care? The Chinese sold/sell those Cave games on cart but because of cost reason are using the wrong voltage for the cart internals (i believe they are using 5v on 3.3v roms). This can mean crashes during game play and also means those carts will probably die someday. A Fluffy cart won't have those problems. That said modifying a Chinese cart with a cheap buck converter should solve those problems also (never dun it myself so take that with a grain of salt)
 
Mageta the Lion said:
...
Click to expand...
Thank you for your reply.

To me, consolizing makes sense just for aesthetics and/or to have both AV/RGB and controller ports in one "closed" package, but I understand your point.

I didn't mean only conversions per se, but repro carts as widely available for, say, MVS or Mega Drive or other systems, either cannibalizing original PCBs or using entirely new (I guess flash?) ones.

So Fluffy carts are conceived for Cave carts? I'm not sure I understood that part. Thanks again.
 
About Fluffy Carts in short: Those are Repros/Bootlegs that won't suffer the same problems a Chinese Repro/bootleg would have. Basically you can choose to get a Fluffy repro or a Chinise repro and you want to choose a fluffy repro. (To be even more clear if you are interested in the Cave games just buy them here from @nnap)
Why aren't there more repro carts (there are some!)? The Same reason you can't just get a Star Fox for SNES from Aliexpress -> "special" chips directly on the cart (in this case an ARM cpu on some games). Sure someone could probably make it work but it simply wouldn't be worth the effort nor would "you" be willing to pay what the repro would cost. (Star Fox example: Why would anybody buy an expensive Star Fox repro when you can get a cheap original anytime).

Edit: You can find additional info in MAME (whats on the cart etc.)
https://github.com/mamedev/mame/blob/master/src/mame/igs/pgm.cpp
 
Last edited:
James from RetroHQ is making the PGM GameDrive cart. He's gotten the 3 Fluffy games to work and has also created a simple menu to select games. Don't think there's really many games left over to work, so the transition to features should be happening now.
wickerwaka is also working on the PGM core. He's gotten far with that core. Music/sound is making a lot of progress now. Several, if not all, Games are running pretty close to cycle accurate.
 
Tim aka @GC8TECH here on the forums, is probably the best guy to ask about this stuff. He's based in Australia.

Here's his Website which has a ton of great information:
https://www.igspgm.com/

I do know that the version of the PGM PCB that you want is the newer V14 version. Here are some pics of the V14 version with some mods that @GC8TECH provides (pics taken from his old website):
https://web.archive.org/web/20250319091654/http://www.igspgm.com/sell/index.htm
finished1.jpg

finished2.jpg


Here's a link to information on the @Fluffy carts:
Fluffy

Thread 'PGM single game PCB interest check'

Can I see a show of hands who is interested in my PGM Single Game PCBs? (Registering an interest here does NOT commit you to actually buying anything.)

One "set" is one PROG board and one CHAR board. You will receive bare PCBs only and you'll need to get and burn games yourself.

Make sure you have a programmer for 27c322 EPROMs and 16v8 GAL, and that you're comfortable soldering. (Or that you know someone locally who can do it for you.) This shouldn't be a challenge for anyone who has held a soldering iron before, though.

IMG_20190528_094400.jpg


Features:
- fancy red colour
- ENIG gold plating
-...
  • Like

Here's a video that someone posted on one of his boards:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifmToPwxOMw


Good luck!

Del
 
PGM emulation (at least in MAME) is basically perfect in terms of gameplay, but the audio emulation is a bit screwy.

I've got a chinese bootleg Ketsui cart, and I haven't ran into any issues with it yet.
Internally it uses the forward voltage drop of two diodes to drop 5V to 3.6V, which is just barely in tolerance for the 3.3V memory chips, according to their datasheets.
A Fluffy cart would definitely be the way to go though, as that is a real hack.
 
Thanks everyone for the replies.

I have another question: there seems to be like a hundred Knights of Valour variants (revisiones, sequels, 1.5, China/HK/world, etc.). I don't know if this is common or if it happens with other titles. Is there like a master list somewhere where I can check which version of which game is supposed to be the best one?


Mageta the Lion said:
About Fluffy Carts in short: Those are Repros/Bootlegs that won't suffer the same problems a Chinese Repro/bootleg would have. Basically you can choose to get a Fluffy repro or a Chinise repro and you want to choose a fluffy repro. (To be even more clear if you are interested in the Cave games just buy them...
Click to expand...

I understand now :)

raynex said:
James from RetroHQ is making the PGM GameDrive cart.
Click to expand...

I literally just found out about this while I was trying to find out more about the system! Looks promising.

DelsArcade said:
I do know that the version of the PGM PCB that you want is the newer V14 version. Here are some pics of the V14 version with some mods that @GC8TECH provides (pics taken from his old website):
Click to expand...
Interesting. Why is V14 the best?
 
hombreimaginario said:
Interesting. Why is V14 the best?
Click to expand...
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it has to do with the way V14 was designed for minimal battery damage if they leak. Those tend to be the most reliable ones (I think) to bulletproof. (It's been a while since I've researched it, so again, someone please correct me if I misunderstood this.)

Del
 
hombreimaginario said:
I have another question: there seems to be like a hundred Knights of Valour variants (revisiones, sequels, 1.5, China/HK/world, etc.). I don't know if this is common or if it happens with other titles. Is there like a master list somewhere where I can check which version of which game is supposed to be the best one?
Click to expand...
This should be all Games officially released. (Be careful with system16.com there are some errors from time to time)
Different Names in different Regions are "normal" for Arcade games (NeoGeo examples: Samurai Shodown = Samurai Spirits or The Last Blade = The Last Soldier)
About the Best version, honestly mostly not that important for pgm:
  • Oriental Legend:
    • Latest version "Oriental Legend Special Plus" -> Still a Bad Game
  • Knights of Valour:
    • Latest Version "Knights Of Valour Super Heroes Plus"
    • "Knights Of Valour Plus" is dirt cheap on Aliexpress so i would just get that one instead of the latest
  • Knights of Valour 2:
    • No Clue, i have the Version for PGM2. Maybe an expert can chime in if the latest Cart version is better or worse than the PGM2 version
  • The Killing Blade:
    • Latest Version "The Killing Blade Plus"
    • Again "The Killing Blade" is "Dirt" Cheap and the "Plus" not really worth the high extra cost.
  • Puzzli 2:
    • Latest Version "Puzzli 2 Super"
    • Get "Puzzli 2 Super" or convert/upgrade a normal to "Super" (i believe this was possible)
  • Demon Front:
    • The PCB version is Cheaper than the Cart so i would get that one (no significant difference between the two)
  • The Gladiator - Road of the Sword:
    • PCB Version is Cheaper but has the wrong ¿Music/Sound effects?
    • I bought a cart from sheep_nova (great seller active on the forum with pgm stock)
  • "S.V.G. : Spectral vs Generation":
    • The Cart is the Latest version but way more expensive than the pcb
      • Latest as in latest Balance patch, there are no missing Characters to my knowledge
    • Not that great of a game, unless you are really deep in to fighting games get the PCB version
  • "Martial Masters":
    • Special case: There is a patch that unlocks the endboss (you can upgrade/patch the cart), but i believe the patch is unoffical
 
hombreimaginario said:
Hello everyone.

I found out about the PGM literally a couple weeks ago, watched a few videos, got strangely fascinated and the more I read about it, the more I realize there's so much I don't understand about this board. So my apologies in advance if most of these questions have been answered a hundred times before, but I stil thought this would be a good place to get some reliable info from people who know their sh*t.

First of all, while I've seen dozens of different MVS consolizations over the years, I've only come across a couple consolized PGMs on places like Ebay. Is it a pain in the ass to consolize, is there simply not a very high demand or is it just that the arcade board itself is quite convenient to use and play as it is?

On the other hand, I read that the PGM games took some time to properly dump and emulate because different games feature different chips on the PCBs. So how easy is it to emulate nowadays? (I'm talking about the first PGM, not PGM 2, etc).

Also, while multigame carts are quite common for MVS, I think they're not nearly as common for the PGM. I've seen 2-in-1 and 4-in-1 carts on Aliexpress, but I don't know if there are other compilations or solutions out there...?

Also related to that, is it easy to make repros of these carts? Or are some of the games still not reproducible?

Last, what are "Fluffy" carts? 🤔

Thanks in advance! :)
Click to expand...

Hello, You might want to join my PGM Discord server. (Invite is in my signature) It has a lot of people who love the PGM as well. PLUS it has all the info on the PGM flash cart AND the Mister FPGA Core of the PGM as well (Both are in development).

T.
 
"S.V.G. : Spectral vs Generation":
The Cart is the Latest version but way more expensive than the pcb
Click to expand...
Some SvG carts have V200 ROMs, but mine came with "V100TW." So, a cart doesn't guarantee V200, and I'm not sure if V100 carts like mine can be converted to V200.
 
For the Demon Front the PCB version also have wrong sound effects, no ? At least I read it somewhere, can't check as i have it in a cart.
 
More questions!

So I came across this consolized PGM. Not that I'm buying it (for now anyway, it looks way too expensive), but it made me wonder:
- What the hell does CBOX mean?
- That VGA-looking cable is actually intended for the joystick? If it's db15, should my good old NG CD controller just work?
- If the PGM is (by default / unmodded) mono, where are those cables getting the stereo from? We have to assume it's already modded?
- That component-looking cable seems to connect... where? To a VGA output on the side of the console? I'm sorry I sound so ridiculously ignorant. The fact is I am.
- Also, no way to know what revision of the board this is using, is there?
- Pics on the item page and pics the seller shared on message don't seem to depict the same exact item, either that or I'm going blind or paranoid:








Then I found this other one which looks a bit confusing as it seems to feature 4 controller ports on the front but then it seems to feature 2 players only on another picture, even shows the 2-player component/thingie on another:






(Also, is it getting composite video and stereo audio... out of a headphone jack? Is this common?)

Thanks in advance again :)
 
Probably answer a couple questions here..

Not 100% sure, but I believe the CBOX is an adapter to add a jamma interface to the consolized PGM. I.e. it gives you some supergun functionality in addition to just the PGM.

DB15 cable… the joystick pictured has no cable attached. It will just have a male DB15 port just like the console, so it is just a patch cable really. NeoGeo is the standard for these sort of superguns, so yes, a NeoGeo controller should* work just fine.

Audio is probably* dual mono. Perhaps CBOX could* support different audio configurations, it back to point 1.

Probably*

Whatever was to hand…

What you see if not always what you get. Designs change or items are straight up different. As with all the could* would* should *… unless someone else has run some basic tests you won’t be sure what you are getting.
I.e. has been common that the CSync is not properly handled on these sort of units. TTL voltage vs 75ohm terminations expected by your tv.

Lastly… read the descriptions. The same box may come with different options 2 or 4 player ports etc

May ‘look cleaner’, but a PGM and a supergun from a trusted source will be a much better choice in the long run. Consider the point about video from a headphone jack… (yes it’s a triple pin jack, not a standard 3.5mm audio only version), do you really want a different suite of cables and power supplies per consolized unit?
 
nam9 said:
Not 100% sure, but I believe the CBOX is an adapter to add a jamma interface to the consolized PGM. I.e. it gives you some supergun functionality in addition to just the PGM.

DB15 cable… the joystick pictured has no cable attached. It will just have a male DB15 port just like the console, so it is just a patch cable really. NeoGeo is the standard for these sort of superguns, so yes, a NeoGeo controller should* work just fine.
Click to expand...

Makes sense.

Btw, is the PGM usually 4 button? 6 button?

Audio is probably* dual mono. Perhaps CBOX could* support different audio configurations, it back to point 1.
Click to expand...

Ah, you may be right. I guess that would be the easiest.


I.e. has been common that the CSync is not properly handled on these sort of units. TTL voltage vs 75ohm terminations expected by your tv.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand. What's the issue with CSync?


May ‘look cleaner’, but a PGM and a supergun from a trusted source will be a much better choice in the long run.
Click to expand...
Well, of course, but I don't know any "trusted source" remotely in my area so I'm just, you know, taking a look, exploring options, learning about what I see :)

Consider the point about video from a headphone jack… (yes it’s a triple pin jack, not a standard 3.5mm audio only version), do you really want a different suite of cables and power supplies per consolized unit?
Click to expand...
Not particularly, no, but my RGB and power cables are different for my Mega Drive, Neo Geo, Saturn, etc. anyway. I mean, different consoles need different cables usually, don't they?

The first model seems to use "MD2 RGB out", so I'd like to think I could connect it to my old CRT via scart (but as you said, this is all in the would/could/should area 😅)
 
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