Need help with trackballs

[Ruka]

I recently picked up a ROM board for Sega Sonic the Hedgehog. This is my first arcade PCB so I don't have much experience unfortunately (and therefore have a lot of questions, but I am searching as much as I can). Unfortunately the motherboard, control box, and parts for the reproduction I/O board are still on their way so I'm still trying to figure out what to do regarding controls.

I need to pick up some track balls, and I also need to figure out how to connect them. I imagine what I would like to do is have a separate "controller" for each player. I'll mount the track ball and a few buttons inside of a box or something. But I'm confused regarding wiring it up and where it connects on the motherboard. I have checked the service manual and I have done a ton of searching online but I can't seem to figure this part out and I can't find any clear photos of what exactly other people did (the only photos I could find were pictures of the final result with no clear information of exactly where and exactly how everything connects on the board)

Looking around for trackballs online I see a few options. I could get used trackballs domestically (Japan), I could import some Happ trackballs, or I could get some trackballs on AliExpress. Considering that I need 3 of them, I'm tempted to go the AliExpress route but I see a few different types and I'm not sure if any of them are compatible. As for the buttons, I already have a bunch of Sanwa buttons that I plan to use.

Could anyone help with this? I would really appreciate it.

 

[twistedsymphony]

electrically trackballs are pretty standard, there are essentially 2 sensors each with 4 wires (not necessarily pinned in this order):
1. Vcc (usually +5V)
2. Ground
3. Pulse A
4. Pulse B

it's identical to a spinner except it has 2 axis instead of just 1.

so a sega track ball will typically have the same signals as a happ, as another brand.

As for Sonic specifically. the Trackballs all plug into the daughter-board. there is a single connector for the trackballs of all 3 players. Given you're ordering a non-original trackball board you'll want to contact whoever made it for the pin out, I've seen some that match the original Sega pinout and others that use unique headers per player that match other more modern games. Similarly the trackballs you order you find out from the seller what the pinout of the sensor boards is so you know which pin is used for what. While signals are fairly standard connector pinouts are not.

where it gets complicated is in the sizing
you have the trackball diameter, then you have the roller diameter, then you have the number of windows on the pulse wheel, all of these things effect the in-game speed of the track-ball. if you have two trackballs with the same sized rollers and same number of windows on the pulse wheel but one has a large diameter ball then the one with the larger diameter will cause the in-game movement to be slower. Generally as these numbers get smaller the in-game speed gets faster. Some games do offer adjustments in game for different trackball sizes/configurations. I'm not sure if Sonic is one of them.

So while you may have a setup that works electrically, the game play might not be great because of the mechanical aspects of the trackball you picked up. I don't know enough about the original Sega spinners to know what size balls, rollers, and wheels they featured and if they match up with other brands like happ.

 

[Ruka]

electrically trackballs are pretty standard, there are essentially 2 sensors each with 4 wires (not necessarily pinned in this order):
1. Vcc (usually +5V)
2. Ground
3. Pulse A
4. Pulse B

it's identical to a spinner except it has 2 axis instead of just 1.

so a sega track ball will typically have the same signals as a happ, as another brand.

As for Sonic specifically. the Trackballs all plug into the daughter-board. there is a single connector for the trackballs of all 3 players. Given you're ordering a non-original trackball board you'll want to contact whoever made it for the pin out, I've seen some that match the original Sega pinout and others that use unique headers per player that match other more modern games. Similarly the trackballs you order you find out from the seller what the pinout of the sensor boards is so you know which pin is used for what. While signals are fairly standard connector pinouts are not.

where it gets complicated is in the sizing
you have the trackball diameter, then you have the roller diameter, then you have the number of windows on the pulse wheel, all of these things effect the in-game speed of the track-ball. if you have two trackballs with the same sized rollers and same number of windows on the pulse wheel but one has a large diameter ball then the one with the larger diameter will cause the in-game movement to be slower. Generally as these numbers get smaller the in-game speed gets faster. Some games do offer adjustments in game for different trackball sizes/configurations. I'm not sure if Sonic is one of them.

So while you may have a setup that works electrically, the game play might not be great because of the mechanical aspects of the trackball you picked up. I don't know enough about the original Sega spinners to know what size balls, rollers, and wheels they featured and if they match up with other brands like happ.

First of all, thank you for the information! I will confirm the pin-out of the I/O board (It's the one that was shared on this forum) and will contact the sellers of the aliexpress trackballs to confirm the pin-out of those as well. Based on the information I saw in the service manual, it seems as though Sonic has some configuration settings for the sensitivity of the trackballs. I need to check again in order to confirm them, but I definitely saw an illustration of a screen for testing the trackball sensitivity, however it's currently unclear if you could adjust the settings or only test it. I do know the size of the trackball that Sega used but I'm unsure about the internal pieces, so hopefully I'm right about adjustable settings.

The part I'm still confused about is the player buttons. Each player has a button for jumping and a start button. Do these also connect to the I/O board, or do they connect elsewhere?

 

[twistedsymphony]

The part I'm still confused about is the player buttons. Each player has a button for jumping and a start button. Do these also connect to the I/O board, or do they connect elsewhere?

these will connect to the JAMMA edge like a normal game

the service manual describes these connections on pages 6 and 7, and has the original factory trackball pinout on page 8: http://arcade.segakore.fr/downloads/manuals/420-6095_segasonic_the_hedeghog_service_manual_1st.pdf

 

[Fredo]

First of all, thank you for the information! I will confirm the pin-out of the I/O board (It's the one that was shared on this forum) and will contact the sellers of the aliexpress trackballs to confirm the pin-out of those as well. Based on the information I saw in the service manual, it seems as though Sonic has some configuration settings for the sensitivity of the trackballs. I need to check again in order to confirm them, but I definitely saw an illustration of a screen for testing the trackball sensitivity, however it's currently unclear if you could adjust the settings or only test it. I do know the size of the trackball that Sega used but I'm unsure about the internal pieces, so hopefully I'm right about adjustable settings.

The part I'm still confused about is the player buttons. Each player has a button for jumping and a start button. Do these also connect to the I/O board, or do they connect elsewhere?

The sensitivity can not be adjusted, it's just a test screen to check if the trackballs work correctly.

The original Sega trackballs use 2.25" balls.

Different trackballs with different ball size, cylinders, sensors and coding wheels will result in different sensitivity; but they can work fine as well.

Also, it is possible to configure the game to use the Jump button as Start as well.

 

[Ruka]

these will connect to the JAMMA edge like a normal game

the service manual describes these connections on pages 6 and 7, and has the original factory trackball pinout on page 8: http://arcade.segakore.fr/downloads/manuals/420-6095_segasonic_the_hedeghog_service_manual_1st.pdf

It seems I will need to figure out a solution for that. The supergun that I purchased has spots for Sega Saturn and Neo Geo controllers to be plugged in, but unfortunately that's obviously not going to work for this specific game. I guess I can pick up an extension cable for one of those two controllers, cut it, and wire the buttons into that. Either that or make a Jamma extender and bypass it from the source. I guess either would work.

Thank you again for the info on the track balls! I found that one of the trackballs on AliExpress has the pinout information listed directly on the board! I'm not sure what clock and data do, but it should be easy enough to figure out what's right. I'll grab one of these for sure. The size is also pretty close to what Sega used.

 

[Ruka]

T

The sensitivity can not be adjusted, it's just a test screen to check if the trackballs work correctly.

The original Sega trackballs use 2.25" balls.

Different trackballs with different ball size, cylinders, sensors and coding wheels will result in different sensitivity; but they can work fine as well.

Also, it is possible to configure the game to use the Jump button as Start as well.

Thank you for the info!

 

[twistedsymphony]

I found that one of the trackballs on AliExpress has the pinout information listed directly on the board! I'm not sure what clock and data do

that's a PC trackball, those signals are for serial communication and that is not compatible with arcade hardware

 

[Ruka]

that's a PC trackball, those signals are for serial communication and that is not compatible with arcade hardware

Not compatible at all? I see listings for what look to be the same trackball (with the same pinout) which say they support those jamma 60-in-1 boards. Is it a false claim?

 

[twistedsymphony]

the JAMMA 60 in 1 boards are PCs in a JAMMA form factor and not the same thing as original Sega System 32 hardware

 

[Fredo]

There are regularly Sega Trackballs for sale on YAJ, although never new, some are in pretty decent condition since they come from recent Sega arcade cabs. They are recognizable by the translucent ball that can be retro lit. (Although they don't fit inside my NNC with the metal part fort the LED, it makes the trackball too deep for my panel.

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/v1084582073?conversionType=service_page_search

 

[Ruka]

There are regularly Sega Trackballs for sale on YAJ, although never new, some are in pretty decent condition since they come from recent Sega arcade cabs. They are recognizable by the translucent ball that can be retro lit. (Although they don't fit inside my NNC with the metal part fort the LED, it makes the trackball too deep for my panel.

https://buyee.jp/item/yahoo/auction/v1084582073?conversionType=service_page_search

Thanks again for the help. I picked up the exact track ball that you linked. Meanwhile all of the parts for the reproduction I/O board have arrived except I'm still waiting for a few NEC µPD4701AC chips (I only have one on-hand in the meantime so it will be a few weeks until I can test it out. However, in the meantime I received my motherboard and was able to confirm that everything works with my supergun and was able to get the game to start and at least make Sonic jump using a Saturn controller. While I wait for the chips I can make a housing for the trackball and buttons.

 

[everten]

Was there an official light kit for these? I just grabbed 2 Sega trackballs and was about to start looking into building an LED board to light it up.

 

[Fredo]

Was there an official light kit for these? I just grabbed 2 Sega trackballs and was about to start looking into building an LED board to light it up.

Yes, the Sengokushi Taisen arcade card game features a yellow lit Sega trackball on the left.

It's basically just a metal piece with a 12V Led holder, added to the original sega trackball design.

I bought two of these, but the LED holder piece makes the trackball too deep to fit within my NNC base panel, so I cannot use the Led holders. Also, I don't have the translucent balls either, so I replaced them with standard white billard balls. Not a bad deal as they were almost new, but I wished I could light them up.

 

[everten]

Yes, the Sengokushi Taisen arcade card game features a yellow lit Sega trackball on the left.

It's basically just a metal piece with a 12V Led holder, added to the original sega trackball design.

I bought two of these, but the LED holder piece makes the trackball too deep to fit within my NNC base panel, so I cannot use the Led holders. Also, I don't have the translucent balls either, so I replaced them with standard white billard balls. Not a bad deal as they were almost new, but I wished I could light them up.

Very cool. I was thinking about designing a PCB that could mount to the bottom and give RGB control of a few LEDs, can tap the 5v right from the trackball harness.

I just ordered a few new balls from Twisted Quarter. Really curious how the translucent pink one will look.