What's new

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
AV3 will accept TTL sync yes (this is how Taito F3 works) but its RGB input levels were designed with VGA in mind (it is a hd15 connector after all *eyeroll*).
The RGB levels directly from an arcade PCB (not a supergun) are waaaay too high, and would eventually damage the OSSC I'm afraid.

This is why I had that custom PCB made, its only purpose is to knock down arcade PCB values into SCART values that won't overload the OSSC.
Converting the TTL into 75ohm then ending in 8 pin min din is so we can use a 8 pin mini din to SCART cable (common among retro shops/sellers)...
Then use AV1 of the OSSC, as this input supports low pass filtering options (AV3 doesn't, not at ALL).
0C7A2CE8-F1FE-43FB-A461-3CDA8C3AAF55.jpeg


Scene standard pinout... (xRGB, HAS, NES-RGB mod, PCEngine IFU30 mod).
oihFBl6.jpg


@citrus3000psi 's 8-pin mini din custom PCB panel jack adapter (conforms to the established scene standard above).
SxvxHqH.jpg


Reguardless of personal feelings this scene standard is becoming THE standard PERIOD!
Stop fighting progress all you HD15 jack users, that connecter is for 31khz VGA (not 15khz RGBs).
 
Last edited:

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
Thanks Jassin - it seems the level of awareness of this may be low in the community. I had not appreciated the RGB point on the OSSC AV3 (i assumed the TTL sync tolerance included RGB levels too) and think many others using it in their arcade setup haven't. Seems there is a need for an arcade-focused OSSC model or more all in one solution incorporating what you have built.

One question : would the Pre-ADC Gain option on the OSSC not bring down RGB levels, or is it already too late at that point?

Thanks
 

invzim

Champion
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
780
Reaction score
1,555
Location
Oslo, Norway
2 The Jammfier outputs raw/PCB video levels with TTL sync, its overloading the OSSC's input that was designed for SCART levels with 75ohm sync.

I've been working with @Frank_fjs to design a solution especially tailored for a setup like mine (its basically just the video portion of his supergun design).
This is the first time I've actually talked about it outside of our private PM, but I think you guys are going to like it once we release the design 100% FOR FREE! :)

I also want to point out @invzim has the "Trisync Helper" device for sale right now.
It will knock the output levels of the Jammafier down to SCART levels and is his official intended solution (I don't like that any of these devices use HD15 tho, HD15 is for VGA damn it, 8pin mini din baby that's our scene standard for 15khz video and its what I'm using).
The Tri-Sync Helper is really designed for Tri-Sync CRT's, thus the VGA connector. It re-amplifies RGB to 'VGA levels', 75 OHM, and also now has the option to output TTL CSYNC which makes Sanwa PFX happy (and incidentally also the OSSC when using the AV3 input).
AV3 will accept TTL sync yes (this is how Taito F3 works) but its RGB input levels were designed with VGA in mind (it is a hd15 connector after all *eyeroll*).
The RGB levels directly from an arcade PCB (not a supergun) are waaaay too high, and would eventually damage the OSSC I'm afraid.

This is why I had that custom PCB made, its only purpose is to knock down arcade PCB values into SCART values that won't overload the OSSC.
Converting the TTL into 75ohm then ending in 8 pin min din is so we can use a 8 pin mini din to SCART cable (common among retro shops/sellers)...
Then use AV1 of the OSSC, as this input supports low pass filtering options (AV3 doesn't, not at ALL).
I made a version of the upcoming Retro Scaler with low-pass filter, but decided against it as it quantitatively didn't make arcade games look any better.

'scart csync' really is a composite video signal, with just the sync part left in - meaning it should be about 0.3V AC coupled (which is also what the frame-meister has listed as it's input signal for sync).
 

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
2 The Jammfier outputs raw/PCB video levels with TTL sync, its overloading the OSSC's input that was designed for SCART levels with 75ohm sync.

I've been working with @Frank_fjs to design a solution especially tailored for a setup like mine (its basically just the video portion of his supergun design).
This is the first time I've actually talked about it outside of our private PM, but I think you guys are going to like it once we release the design 100% FOR FREE! :)

I also want to point out @invzim has the "Trisync Helper" device for sale right now.
It will knock the output levels of the Jammafier down to SCART levels and is his official intended solution (I don't like that any of these devices use HD15 tho, HD15 is for VGA damn it, 8pin mini din baby that's our scene standard for 15khz video and its what I'm using).
The Tri-Sync Helper is really designed for Tri-Sync CRT's, thus the VGA connector. It re-amplifies RGB to 'VGA levels', 75 OHM, and also now has the option to output TTL CSYNC which makes Sanwa PFX happy (and incidentally also the OSSC when using the AV3 input).
AV3 will accept TTL sync yes (this is how Taito F3 works) but its RGB input levels were designed with VGA in mind (it is a hd15 connector after all *eyeroll*).
The RGB levels directly from an arcade PCB (not a supergun) are waaaay too high, and would eventually damage the OSSC I'm afraid.

This is why I had that custom PCB made, its only purpose is to knock down arcade PCB values into SCART values that won't overload the OSSC.
Converting the TTL into 75ohm then ending in 8 pin min din is so we can use a 8 pin mini din to SCART cable (common among retro shops/sellers)...
Then use AV1 of the OSSC, as this input supports low pass filtering options (AV3 doesn't, not at ALL).
I made a version of the upcoming Retro Scaler with low-pass filter, but decided against it as it quantitatively didn't make arcade games look any better.
'scart csync' really is a composite video signal, with just the sync part left in - meaning it should be about 0.3V AC coupled (which is also what the frame-meister has listed as it's input signal for sync).
Invzim - sounds very interesting. Will this address all the RGB level issues cited above when using arcade boards in modern cabinets? Does it also have line double functionality like the OSSC? Thanks
 

invzim

Champion
Joined
Apr 9, 2016
Messages
780
Reaction score
1,555
Location
Oslo, Norway
Invzim - sounds very interesting. Will this address all the RGB level issues cited above when using arcade boards in modern cabinets? Does it also have line double functionality like the OSSC? Thanks
The scaler is designed to take raw arcade video signals and line double. the Tri-sync helper adjusts RGB and re-generates sync, but doesn't touch the scan-rate. More info on my website :)
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
the Tri-sync helper adjusts RGB and re-generates sync, but doesn't touch the scan-rate
This scaler is truly a replacement for the Taito scaler IMO, the only area of concern is how will an older Vewlix LCD react to the unaltered scanrate.
I'm going to buy one when ready, so I'll let you guys know! :)
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
One question : would the Pre-ADC Gain option on the OSSC not bring down RGB levels, or is it already too late at that point?
If the input is too low, yes you can use the RGB gain/amp options of the OSSC to bump it up.
But if the input is too high, even turning all the pre/post gains to zero will NOT help (the image is bright AF, and potentially dangerous for the OSSC).

This image comes from @wigsplitta but I observed the same exact thing on my setup...
NbFlB31.jpg


Look at how we have no color separation/difference after the "A" line.
The values are too high and we are losing detail/image quality as a result.
 

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
Invzim - sounds very interesting. Will this address all the RGB level issues cited above when using arcade boards in modern cabinets? Does it also have line double functionality like the OSSC? Thanks
The scaler is designed to take raw arcade video signals and line double. the Tri-sync helper adjusts RGB and re-generates sync, but doesn't touch the scan-rate. More info on my website :)
Thanks - consider yourself one customer up. Looking forward to its release. Congratulations on the baby too (a different kind of release model - no upfront costs but a lifetime subscription of expensive upgrades with food, clothes, toys, school, etc.!) :)
 

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
One question : would the Pre-ADC Gain option on the OSSC not bring down RGB levels, or is it already too late at that point?
If the input is too low, yes you can use the RGB gain/amp options of the OSSC to bump it up.But if the input is too high, even turning all the pre/post gains to zero will NOT help (the image is bright AF, and potentially dangerous for the OSSC).

This image comes from @wigsplitta but I observed the same exact thing on my setup...
NbFlB31.jpg


Look at how we have no color separation/difference after the "A" line.
The values are too high and we are losing detail/image quality as a result.
Thanks, that makes perfect sense now (picture speaks a thousand words). I see no obvious signs of damage to my OSSC (how would i tell?) but it is used infrequently, so perhaps best to wait for the Retro Scaler before the cabinet is used again.
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
Well the Retro Scaler won't need to use the OSSC, it will provide the scaling for you.
When it comes to Vewlix, I feel the quality of the OSSC scale will be greater for the simple reason OSSC supports 1080p and 720p output.
You see LCDs look best when you run them in as close to panel native resolution as you can get, this prevents the LCD itself from doing much scaling (which is always bad/sucky).

But one area where I think the Retro Scaler will be better, its analog VGA output just like Taito's JAMMA scaler.
VGA should have less input lag overall, because digital needs to be encoded, handshook and decoded.
 

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
Well the Retro Scaler won't need to use the OSSC, it will provide the scaling for you.
When it comes to Vewlix, I feel the quality of the OSSC scale will be greater for the simple reason OSSC supports 1080p and 720p output.
You see LCDs look best when you run them in as close to panel native resolution as you can get, this prevents the LCD itself from doing much scaling (which is always bad/sucky).

But one area where I think the Retro Scaler will be better, its analog VGA output just like Taito's JAMMA scaler.
VGA should have less input lag overall, because digital needs to be encoded, handshook and decoded.
A conundrum then - choose the OSSC for better resolution (and have to sort out add ons) or the Retro Scaler for tolerance to RGB.

Question then for Invzim - will the Retro Scaler allow for 3x or 4x line multiplication, or just 2x. If i recall correctly the OSSC increased this capability over time with firmware. I am not unduly worried about only 2x for 240p, but Jassin has a good point about the LCDs then scaling the remainder itself.
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
If you have a CRT monitor you'll want the Retro Scaler.
If you have a LCD monitor you'll have the choice of OSSC (with my add on board, or Zim's Trisync Helper to lower RGB values) or the Retro Scaler.

A few potential issues... The older Vewlix LCDs are not going to like unaltered sync/scan rates, this is a problem for the OSSC and I believe it will also be a problem for Retro Scaler (but this as of now is untested).
Truth be told even the newest Diamond monitors aren't real friendly to strange sync rates either, but they fair far better than original (L/F/FC) monitors.

Some game PCBs like the Midway Y/T/Wolf Units will NEVER sync on a Vewlix LCD no matter how new your screen is, the scan rate is just too low (54.88Hz)...
wcqFYRq.jpg


For these you'll need to pair up a iScan DVDO VP30/50/50Pro, which adds more lag to the chain (but will frame buffer the sync out to a pure 60.0Hz).
I did this here to prove it works (but the experience wasn't very good/its better on my HAS supergun+BenQ LCD).
eI2G9er.jpg

AvS2qxi.jpg
 
Last edited:

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
If you have a CRT monitor you'll want the Retro Scaler.
If you have a LCD monitor you'll have the choice of OSSC (with my add on board, or Zim's Trisync Helper to lower RGB values) or the Retro Scaler.

A few potential issues... The older Vewlix LCDs are not going to like unaltered sync/scan rates, this is a problem for the OSSC and I believe it will also be a problem for Retro Scaler (but this as of now is untested).
Truth be told even the newest Diamond monitors aren't real friendly to strange sync rates either, but they fair far better than original (L/F/FC) monitors.

Some game PCBs like the Midway Y/T/Wolf Units will NEVER sync on a Vewlix LCD no matter how new your screen is, the scan rate is just too low (54.88Hz)...
wcqFYRq.jpg


For these you'll need to pair up a iScan DVDO VP30/50/50Pro, which adds more lag to the chain (but will frame buffer the sync out to a pure 60.0Hz).
I did this here to prove it works (but the experience wasn't very good/its better on my HAS supergun+BenQ LCD).
eI2G9er.jpg

AvS2qxi.jpg
Thank Jassin. And may i say, a nice setup! I have just taken delivery of a Black Diamond but not plugged it in yet (used the cunning, persuasive argument with my wife that it is an investment in our daughters future). I live in Japan so i also said it is supporting the economy through the proxy of Taito :) Some of my boards do have odd scan rates but as you say, hopefully the newer Vewlix screens are more forgiving.

As an aside, the cabinet i have is a Galaxy from a company called Lucky-net, and the monitor (1920x1080) seems to be amazing at accepting any scan rate at all. - http://lucky-net.com/s-list.html. Not tried the Vewlix but perhaps this is a tougher challenge.
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
@Joe the screens in the Black Diamond are the best hands down, the sync rates are far more forgiving of ranges outside of 60.0Hz.
As pointed out by @Derick2k they also seem to accept 240p/480i directly, but internal scaling will never match a dedicated solution like the OSSC/Retro/Taito scalers.

Hehe, I was going to recommend a step down transformer to you...
But as you live in Japan that would be totally pointless (only us USA/Euro users need to convert voltage).

Once you get setup, please share some images with us in the Show you arcade room "mancave" thread! :thumbup:

P.S. I <3 Taito! :love:
250


I've just gotta say it tho...
unfortunately I wasn't a big fan of Japan itself (you guys are wicket uptight man).

I have tattoos so I was ban from your water parks and hot springs (unless I covered them with giant bandages).
No cell phone use on trains (its a public place WTF)?
No photography signs hung in public places (its a public place WTF)?
All the alcohol (with the exception of Whisky/beer that I can't drink) was weak/just awful, and no weed!
By the end of my vacation I couldn't wait to get home (sorry to say I won't ever be going back, shits lame). :thumbdown:
 
Last edited:

Magus Incognito

Student
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
63
Reaction score
19
Location
San Diego, CA
Yeah unfortunate the Taito scaler looks like crap on the Black Diamond monitors. The monitor seems to upscale it to (720x480) and the timing clock/phase is all off and I personally can’t seem to adjust it to were it looks even OK.

Maybe that’s part of why Taito stopped making them; knowing that they would have to be revised to keep up compatible with the newer Vewlix Monitors??? CPS3 seems to look the best but still leaves much to be desired. I personally would like to see a solution for connecting an OSSC directly into the Taito JAMMA Kit harness. Unfortunately I’m broke at the moment and can’t afford any new equipment but maybe by the time this becomes a reality, if it ever does, I’ll have some funds saved up :D

@rewrite are you still looking to borrow someone’s official Taito JAMMA Kit? I can lend you mine if you still are ;)
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
I personally would like to see a solution for connecting an OSSC directly into the Taito JAMMA Kit harness.
So might I... But that solution is only going to work for US (aka the few people who actually own the kit).
So we need to pursue another solution that will NOT require ANY of these original kit parts.

@rewrite wants to reproduce the harness, and it would be easy to modify it to support OSSC by using the little PCB @Frank_fjs designed (drops the RGB levels to acceptable OSSC levels).
But just like I said, unless you also reproduce the control panel interconnect PCB how will you attach it?
hgzbtSp.jpg


Sure you could crimp 15/12 pin JST heads onto the cable and connect directly to the J/K (P1/P2) harnesses... What sense does that make tho?
Then you would lose cab credit, test and services switches unless you also hacked thos wires up.
Would save you from buying that expensive K (or making yet another cable) tho.

So ok now you've gone direct, congrats, you have a hacked up/franken Vewlix (IMO you might as well have purchased a Chewlix and called it a day if you didn't give a shit about originality).

Nope sorry, its a bad suggestion, its a poor solution and I'll never back or support that kind of BS'ery.
We can do better!

What I recommend to everyone who owns a Vewlix and wants to play JAMMA...
  • Get the Taito JVS IO
  • Get the Wei Ya (Taito official) JVS PSU (you actually need this anyway, even if you want to use official Taito kit)
  • Get Zim's Jammafier
  • Get Zim's Tri-sync helper or wait for me to release the PCB designs we made for free (in about two weeks once I've assembled and tested it)
  • Get a OSSC
  • Get a modern LCD (Taito official or Hadoken Arcade's LG bracket, if you have a F, L or FC don't even bother with this you can't sync shit)
 
Last edited:

Joe

Enthusiast
Joined
Oct 2, 2019
Messages
118
Reaction score
85
Location
Tokyo
Thanks Jassin - i knew i shouldn't have looked at the mancave thread! Mancave envy is a terrible thing and all of a sudden my setup looks significantly less impressive :) still, i might submit a humble picture or two once its set up. I came away thinking i don't have enough neon lighting. Tokyo apartments are not known for their palacial footprint (those old arcade cabinets are bigger than some apartments I've rented!).

It sounds like Rewrite might be riding in to save us all from the shortage of Vewlix JAMMA options.
I'm all for originality, but right now it could at least get the machine working with JAMMA in the absence of suitable wiring or a Jammafier.

P. S. Japan takes time to adjust to, but i fell in love with it. On the plus side, we have trains that turn into robots and cat cafes (and Godzilla) :)
 

rewrite

Multi Boyz Litigator
Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Nov 9, 2015
Messages
6,499
Reaction score
4,342
Location
SoCal
@rewrite are you still looking to borrow someone’s official Taito JAMMA Kit? I can lend you mine if you still are ;)
I am! I'd like to reproduce the harness, adjusted to work with the OSSC, and the interconnect PCB at a minimum!

I've been wanting to for a long while now. If you're willing to lend yours out I'd love to start working on it.
 

jassin000

Legendary
Multi Boyz
Joined
Jul 21, 2015
Messages
7,746
Reaction score
6,286
Location
Afterlife
Japan takes time to adjust to, but i fell in love with it. On the plus side, we have trains that turn into robots and cat cafes (and Godzilla)
Oh I know...
Some of the first things we did!

Amazing Arcade shop
izVxEzk.jpg


Amazing Arcades
A5DfWV4.jpg

dZnRYgG.jpg


Fantastic toys
Jk1wwGk.jpg


All great!
But then you guys got shit like this...
7M5mNms.jpg


See where I live, women who charge money for company are called whores, not maids.
Just look how pissed off she is ^ :D
Reason being I walked up to her and said "hi I'm going to take your picture" so she says "sorry sir no pictures" and I said "too bad whore" and too it anyway.

I don't respect anyone who sells company for money, man, woman I just don't give a fuck about you and I'll do whatever I feel like because fuck you.
Same shit applies to trains, I'll talk on my goddamn phone if I feel like it.
Same shit applies to all public spaces, I take a pic of whatever the fuck I want.
Same shit applies to substance abuse, I'll get drunk before noon and smoke pot while driving to work.

Don't' like it? I suggest you stay out of my way then, before someone gets hurt. :whistling: :evil:
 
Last edited:

Magus Incognito

Student
Joined
May 22, 2016
Messages
63
Reaction score
19
Location
San Diego, CA
I personally would like to see a solution for connecting an OSSC directly into the Taito JAMMA Kit harness.
So might I... But that solution is only going to work for US (aka the few people who actually own the kit).
Oh I know, but I would still like to see one ;)

A guy can dream, can't he? :P
 
Top