Arcade Light Gun Games on a TV? (not mame) How is this possible? Does anyone know?

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    • Arcade Light Gun Games on a TV? (not mame) How is this possible? Does anyone know?

      I have seen a few videos on youtube where people have real arcade pcb's running light gun games and they are somehow playing them on a regular tv screen with the real arcade light guns. I would like to know if anyone knows how this is possible. The link below is Lukemorse1 playing Crypt Killer on a TV VCR combo, I had posted a message but sadly no one had replied:

      youtube.com/watch?v=nQ6xwGREj2U

      Here is a video of Naoki Saito Running Time Crisis (Real Board) on a TV:

      youtube.com/watch?v=OItuiu3cCcw


      The game I would like to get working in this fashion would be Star Trek Voyager Arcade, It uses a standard pc motherboard with some sort of Mega Jamma converter board and outputs Standard and Medium resolution. I am not sure if using a gbs8200 on a pc monitor (upscale) would allow the happ guns to still sync with the crt computer monitor or if something like a jrok or gbs8108 to convert it to a standard composite/s-video (TV Screen) would allow the gun to still work. Any help would be appreciated,

      BTW, I do not have the board yet, I just wanted to make sure such a thing was possible before I start spending money on such a thing.
    • X/Y guns, they aren't really "light" guns at all. Actually more like analog joysticks.
      I think Mits can hook you up, but Time Crisis I'm not sure if that can be made to use them.

      The gbs8200 tho... F**k dude DO NOT USE THIS BOARD!
      Its pure trash, in fact I've got one I'll send free to anyone who will pay the shipping.
      Yea, its that bad!
      Darksoft: CPS3, CPS2, F3, MVS
      RGB: RECO v2, HAS v3
      invzim: Jammafier v1.6b
      XianXi: JNX Raiden, SC Taito Classic, SC Sega System 16/24
      Frank_fjs: JAMMA Extender (Special Edition)
    • jassin000 wrote:

      X/Y guns, they aren't really "light" guns at all. Actually more like analog joysticks.
      I think Mits can hook you up, but Time Crisis I'm not sure if that can be made to use them.

      The gbs8200 tho... F**k dude DO NOT USE THIS BOARD!
      Its pure trash, in fact I've got one I'll send free to anyone who will pay the shipping.
      Yea, its that bad!

      What so bad about the gbs8200 board? It seams to work well for everything I use it for. What board do you have that is better?

      In both of those videos they are using real light guns on TV's not the x/y joystick guns. I am just wondering how that is possible.
    • in order to use light guns on a TV like those used with Crypt Killer or Time Crisis in the videos you posted you will need a CRT TV that can accept and display a native RGB signal.

      to do that with a medium resolution game you'll need an RGB CRT that can accecpt and display a Medium Resolution RGB signal.

      Using any sort of converter or scaling mechanism will immediately prevent the light gun from syncing up with the picture and prevent it from working. The way these light guns work is that they are synced up directly with the horizontal refresh signal being sent to the TV, based on where the lens is pointed it can determine which horizontal sync pulse is captured in the video stream and that's how it knows where you're pointing the gun. If you were to film a CRT in slow mo you would be able to see the picture being drawn line by line pixel by pixel... As soon as you use any kind of scaling or other circuitry between the light-gun board and the display you're changing the way the image is built and completely changing the sync pulse so the gun board no longer has any idea where it's pointed. not to mention VGA has a horizontal refresh that is twice as fast as RGB so the gun board might not even be able to detect it.This is also why LCDs don't work, because there is no visible sync pulse in the resultant image, in slow mo you'd just seen the whole screen fade from one frame to the next instead of being drawn one bit at a time.

      The Star Trek Voyager Arcade game has a light gun board that syncs up the gun hardware to the video signal leaving the PC board to make the light gun work. you wont be able to play without this. They're very hard to find. I've always wanted to get my hands on one to reverse engineer since there aren't any true light gun adapters for PC out there. but you wont be able to use this at all without an RGB CRT that is directly compatible with your game board (ie: no converters).

      Non CRT arcade games use an IR LED array around the parameter of the screen. with IR motion detection sensor in the gun. the LEDs flash in a pattern that the gun board can use to determine the gun position. It's basically a more primitive (but much more accurate and much faster) version of the Wii remote. This is what most rear-projection gun games use and Sega has been using this for all light gun games (even CRT games) since Jurassic Park.

      Then there are X/Y games with mounted guns, where the gun is basically just a giant analog joystick. Sega was clever in their IR setup as the gun board is completely separate from the game board and the output signal is similar to an analog joystick signal. This means that any of their gun games could use mounted guns or their IR gun board. and the game would be compatible with both.

      unfortunately this setup is completely incompatible with older CRT based light gun games.

      TL;DR: you need an RGB CRT that works without a converter if you wan to play those old light gun arcade boards.
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    • I am guessing you mean the small board that connects to the parallel port of the motherboard for Star Trek Voyager (referred to as the Mega Jamma board by Team Play) when you refer to the gun board. The only time I have not seen that included is when it was just the bare motherboard and no cpu, ram or other pieces.

      If the tv (Standard Def) I have has component video (Red, Green and blue), would there be some way to wire it from the jamma harness to a set of component cables and thus keep the sync right so the gun will work?

      I might try to see if the tv will since to 480i or lower signals over ypbpr component using my ps2 at some point since I know the system can output lower resolution signals over that connection. The tv seamed to not want to sync to 480p.
      Images
      • voyager.jpg

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    • What's "so bad" about the GBS scaler? Well, EVERYTHING!
      OK OK, the price is cheap/good but other then that.

      It introduces an incredible amount of lag, to the point where fast moving games will visually tear (top half of the screen refreshes while bottom still displays previous frame).
      It can only properly handle progressive images, so you won't be using 480i games (not as common but think about the STV multi).
      Using 15khz component input introduces a ton of noise on solid colors.

      What am I using that's better?
      xRGB Mini
      Taito JAMMA Kit

      What other options exist that are better?
      xRGB3
      xRGB2

      We have another device coming in the near future called OSSC, I highly recommend you read more about it here.
      Darksoft: CPS3, CPS2, F3, MVS
      RGB: RECO v2, HAS v3
      invzim: Jammafier v1.6b
      XianXi: JNX Raiden, SC Taito Classic, SC Sega System 16/24
      Frank_fjs: JAMMA Extender (Special Edition)
    • jassin000 wrote:

      What's "so bad" about the GBS scaler? Well, EVERYTHING!
      OK OK, the price is cheap/good but other then that.

      It introduces an incredible amount of lag, to the point where fast moving games will visually tear (top half of the screen refreshes while bottom still displays previous frame).
      It can only properly handle progressive images, so you won't be using 480i games (not as common but think about the STV multi).
      Using 15khz component input introduces a ton of noise on solid colors.

      What am I using that's better?
      xRGB Mini
      Taito JAMMA Kit

      What other options exist that are better?
      xRGB3
      xRGB2

      We have another device coming in the near future called OSSC, I highly recommend you read more about it here.

      Would you really be willing to send something that is better for just the price of shipping?
    • gamemaster14 wrote:

      Would you really be willing to send something that is better for just the price of shipping?

      jassin000 wrote:

      Its pure trash, in fact I've got one I'll send free to anyone who will pay the shipping.
      What I'm saying is I'll send someone a free GBS8200 if they pay for shipping.
      I would not give away a xRGB mini (350$) or my Taito scaler (400$) for the price of shipping (I would have to be insane).

      The GBS was 35$~40$ I think? I got it about 2 years ago now.
      Yup free, PM me your zip and I'll figure out the shipping charge... You Paypal me that, the board is shipped to you just that simple.
      Darksoft: CPS3, CPS2, F3, MVS
      RGB: RECO v2, HAS v3
      invzim: Jammafier v1.6b
      XianXi: JNX Raiden, SC Taito Classic, SC Sega System 16/24
      Frank_fjs: JAMMA Extender (Special Edition)
    • gamemaster14 wrote:

      I am guessing you mean the small board that connects to the parallel port of the motherboard for Star Trek Voyager (referred to as the Mega Jamma board by Team Play) when you refer to the gun board. The only time I have not seen that included is when it was just the bare motherboard and no cpu, ram or other pieces.

      If the tv (Standard Def) I have has component video (Red, Green and blue), would there be some way to wire it from the jamma harness to a set of component cables and thus keep the sync right so the gun will work?

      I might try to see if the tv will since to 480i or lower signals over ypbpr component using my ps2 at some point since I know the system can output lower resolution signals over that connection. The tv seamed to not want to sync to 480p.
      I suppose they call it the "mega jamma" because it says "mega jamma" on it. the VGA would connect through this not just for the video output on the JAMMA edge connector but also so it can sync up with the light gun signal. I'd venture a guess that the trigger signal and light gun position data is passed in through parallel port.

      As for video Component Video is not RGB. while the wire colors for Component are indeed Red Green and Blue that's not what they carry for data.

      With component video the Green cable carries the composite sync signal as well as the luma signal (the black and white image), while the Red and Blue Cables carry chroma signals (color) A More Technical abbreviation for Component video is Y Pb Pr which represents the luma/sync (Y) and the color data (Pb Pr). an "RGB" connection actually has 4 or 5 wires, Red Signal, Green Signal, Blue Signal and Composite Sync Signal (sometimes Separate Horizontal and Vertical Sync Signals).

      Theoretically you could convert the analog data from an RGB signal to YPbPr (Composite Video) on the fly such that the sync signal would remain intact. but there are several other problems with this.
      1. Most games are not going to be providing a 480i signal, they're going to be providing a 240P at best, or at worst a non-standard resolution such as 244p or 200p. A US spec Component capable TV likely wont accept this signal.

      2. Voyager in particular is Medium resolution which has a 24Khz horizontal refresh rate, which is way faster than the 15K you'd get with an NTSC/480i signal and way slower than a 31K VGA or HD signal. I don't believe is even covered in the component video spec and I highly doubt any consumer TV in the US market will sync with that.

      3. Nearly every Component capable CRT in the US (at least every model I know of) is a digital set that produces internal Scaling, this means that even if you feed it a proper sync signal, it's going up-scale the image to a higher resolution and destroy your sync signal in the process. They're about as useful for Light gun games as LCDs are.

      The short of this is... if you want to play Voyager, you're going to need to buy yourself a Medium Resolution CRT, 90s racing games are a great source for these monitors. If you're super lucky you might find yourself a high end Sony BVM that supports medium resolution. but these are incredibly rare, and only 20" in size, which wont be much fun for light guns.
      Buy 3D Printed Parts: bit-district.com
      Projects: instagram | blog
      Games: VAPS | VOOT | UMK3 | RFM | Vewlix | FiF Jr. | KI2 | E29 | Net City | DDR | Flash Beats
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    • The 14L5 and 20L5 PVM's both support medium resolution.
      I sold my 14L5 last year for 150$ and included BNC splitters and cables.

      As luck would have it I've got a 27" (JPN 29") Wells Garnder K7500 (24khz medium rez) for sale right now.
      The chassis has been fully recapped, the flyback transformer has been changed out and I even replaced the neckboard with a NoS one.

      Obviously this is local pickup only, 100$ its yours (just having the board reworked alone cost me 150$ so this is a hell-of-a-deal).
      Darksoft: CPS3, CPS2, F3, MVS
      RGB: RECO v2, HAS v3
      invzim: Jammafier v1.6b
      XianXi: JNX Raiden, SC Taito Classic, SC Sega System 16/24
      Frank_fjs: JAMMA Extender (Special Edition)
    • twistedsymphony wrote:

      gamemaster14 wrote:

      I am guessing you mean the small board that connects to the parallel port of the motherboard for Star Trek Voyager (referred to as the Mega Jamma board by Team Play) when you refer to the gun board. The only time I have not seen that included is when it was just the bare motherboard and no cpu, ram or other pieces.

      If the tv (Standard Def) I have has component video (Red, Green and blue), would there be some way to wire it from the jamma harness to a set of component cables and thus keep the sync right so the gun will work?

      I might try to see if the tv will since to 480i or lower signals over ypbpr component using my ps2 at some point since I know the system can output lower resolution signals over that connection. The tv seamed to not want to sync to 480p.
      I suppose they call it the "mega jamma" because it says "mega jamma" on it. the VGA would connect through this not just for the video output on the JAMMA edge connector but also so it can sync up with the light gun signal. I'd venture a guess that the trigger signal and light gun position data is passed in through parallel port.

      As for video Component Video is not RGB. while the wire colors for Component are indeed Red Green and Blue that's not what they carry for data.

      With component video the Green cable carries the composite sync signal as well as the luma signal (the black and white image), while the Red and Blue Cables carry chroma signals (color) A More Technical abbreviation for Component video is Y Pb Pr which represents the luma/sync (Y) and the color data (Pb Pr). an "RGB" connection actually has 4 or 5 wires, Red Signal, Green Signal, Blue Signal and Composite Sync Signal (sometimes Separate Horizontal and Vertical Sync Signals).

      Theoretically you could convert the analog data from an RGB signal to YPbPr (Composite Video) on the fly such that the sync signal would remain intact. but there are several other problems with this.
      1. Most games are not going to be providing a 480i signal, they're going to be providing a 240P at best, or at worst a non-standard resolution such as 244p or 200p. A US spec Component capable TV likely wont accept this signal.

      2. Voyager in particular is Medium resolution which has a 24Khz horizontal refresh rate, which is way faster than the 15K you'd get with an NTSC/480i signal and way slower than a 31K VGA or HD signal. I don't believe is even covered in the component video spec and I highly doubt any consumer TV in the US market will sync with that.

      3. Nearly every Component capable CRT in the US (at least every model I know of) is a digital set that produces internal Scaling, this means that even if you feed it a proper sync signal, it's going up-scale the image to a higher resolution and destroy your sync signal in the process. They're about as useful for Light gun games as LCDs are.

      The short of this is... if you want to play Voyager, you're going to need to buy yourself a Medium Resolution CRT, 90s racing games are a great source for these monitors. If you're super lucky you might find yourself a high end Sony BVM that supports medium resolution. but these are incredibly rare, and only 20" in size, which wont be much fun for light guns.

      I had seen some Team Play Documentation that said with a couple of dip switch changes on the Mega Jamma you could get Voyager into 15Khz mode but Police Trainer 2 (which uses the same hardware) will not work in Medium resolution.
    • A lot of the Medium and VGA resolution games will support 15K mode, they did this to make it easier to convert older cabs that still only had a 15K monitor. In most cases you're throwing out about half the image data and making the game look like a hot mess in the process... but hey, you can play it! it all depends on what you're after and if that'd be acceptable to you.
      Buy 3D Printed Parts: bit-district.com
      Projects: instagram | blog
      Games: VAPS | VOOT | UMK3 | RFM | Vewlix | FiF Jr. | KI2 | E29 | Net City | DDR | Flash Beats
      Wanted | For Sale/Trade
    • Mitsurugi-w wrote:

      I would never play a game that is compatible in both resolutions in anything other than Med Res.
      I wish more people felt this way... I've been trying to sell this monitor for 2.5 years! ;)
      Darksoft: CPS3, CPS2, F3, MVS
      RGB: RECO v2, HAS v3
      invzim: Jammafier v1.6b
      XianXi: JNX Raiden, SC Taito Classic, SC Sega System 16/24
      Frank_fjs: JAMMA Extender (Special Edition)
    • Mitsurugi-w wrote:

      If I was closer it would already be mine.
      I'd snagg it personally if I had the room but I've already got 3 spare 27" tri-syncs kicking around. if this were a 25" I might consider picking it up if only to see if I could fit on in my Fix it Felix. (27" is definitely too large, but a 25 might squeeze in there).
      Buy 3D Printed Parts: bit-district.com
      Projects: instagram | blog
      Games: VAPS | VOOT | UMK3 | RFM | Vewlix | FiF Jr. | KI2 | E29 | Net City | DDR | Flash Beats
      Wanted | For Sale/Trade