FS Let's (Respectfully) talk about the Rules™

Aurich said:

tbh I don't think the rules are much of an issue in general, except for people not listing sale prices.

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And as of now, like I've mentioned in other posts, the listing prices topic is really the only thing I would consider "on the docket for change" right now. Other points of discussion have come up somewhat organically, but proposing that we solidify this one thing as a legitimate rule has always wrapped back around and been the focus as of right now.

Aurich said:

It seems like this is really the "Derick" thread for the most part because of his Cave post and what it spawned. And I like Derick, and he's been here a long time and is a valuable member and I don't really care what he does tbh. But, that said, I find that style of thread annoying, and it just seems to make people anxious or mad.

If you haven't dug up the boards yet, just don't post.

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I like Derick too, and +1 that this ISNT specifically about Derick, but ALSO +1 that it's clear one person doing something here CAN have an obviously large influence in what others think is ok to do. If we're going to have rules, then I think we should expect every single person to follow them; regardless of reputation here.

I didn't want to and still don't want to name names, but Derick and I have both gotten along and agreed before about making sure users have posted their Sold prices because...that's the rules. Even right now, they have yet to post the sold prices on their last big cabinet sale thread; only that they received a pending offer for the lot, and then silence. If they sold off AP, they should say that and mark them as unavailable because of it. If they sold on AP, they should list the sold prices. I have no stake in any of his sales; cabs or caves. He's on the wrong coast for me to consider a cab and I'm not in the market for cave- I just want to see the community positively influenced and new users to know we want to be fair across the board.

I've mentioned in another post here- there are some members here and even folks outside of the forum that don't like interacting with our status quo because they believe there's a post-count boys-club of sorts. While on one hand I would argue "well, very active members WILL get along more; that's just the definition of a 'community' ", but it becomes an issue when we allow users to skirt around the rules regarding sales imo just because they're good people. We should be just as to-a-T about the marketplace rules with new users as we should the oldest. Imo, it's just the right thing to do to keep building that good will and further sense of community with newer members.

GeeDee said:

And as of now, like I've mentioned in other posts, the listing prices topic is really the only thing I would consider "on the docket for change" right now.

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My language wasn't the clearest, to make it more clear I just mean "sold" prices. I hate it when people change the price to SOLD and you don't even get to see what it was listed for originally.

GeeDee said:

even folks outside of the forum that don't like interacting with our status quo because they believe there's a post-count boys-club of sorts.

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I had someone tell me I was in a secret club on Twitter because my title here is Enlightened like that matters. Apparently that means I'm part of some sekrit pirate game ring. Alright.

Really I don't care what people outside the forum think. If you're not a member of the community then whatever. Nothing wrong with lurking, but participation counts for something to me too.

Aurich said:

I had someone tell me I was in a secret club on Twitter because my title here is Enlightened like that matters. Apparently that means I'm part of some sekrit pirate game ring. Alright.

Really I don't care what people outside the forum think. If you're not a member of the community then whatever. Nothing wrong with lurking, but participation counts for something to me too.

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Lol I remember seeing that actually. I thinks that's just a case of "this person has friends and I don't; somethings wrong here"

but that's different from just being consistent about the sales rules and such. I think supporting the community matters too, and there's been a little talk that's sprung up about post count restrictions and the like because of wanting to do just that, but think that whole topic is a little too big and fragile compared to just asking folks across the board to post listing and sold priced across the board. I think participation definitely does play a part when it comes to something like deciding WHO you will sell too, but again, that's kind of a more touchy and nuanced thing to talk about and "enforce" compared to the price rules.

Just like you're saying: there is no ~secret legion~ here and we should expect everyone to play by the rules the same as everyone else.

I would just like to remind everyone that if you're PM'ing (or even posting publicly, doesn't matter) to express interest in something that doesn't have a price, YOU'RE part of the problem.

No price? Cool, move on. It's not hard. Keep an eye on that thread if you want to.

For me as "newbie" to Arcade pricing and buying / selling its just a horrible experience!
Hate me but 75% of the pricing feels like wet dreams. There is almost never any evidence or there is this ONE auction and thats the PRICE now.
Most threads feel like the sellers are baiting an idiot. Come grab my batrider but you know its 2000 euro, 3000 next week so be fast... its so incredible rare blablablupp
Even the common stuff you can grab easy on auction all the time is higher most of the time.

IMO;
-Threads should have fixed prices.
-Price discussion should be allowed.
-Items should get "claimed" in the Thread. No comments or "PM" only lead to frustration for everyone. Also you can see who was first in line.
-Would be also great if anyone can see the pricing over the years. So editing sold stuff out should be forbidden.
-One thread per user limit.
-IC threads are stupid, its an arcade forum so there is ALWAYS interest for arcade stuff

Its much more horrible on facebook but check something like shmups.
The pricing there feels like some different world many times.

GeeDee said:

but (imo) prospective buyers lose by not wanting to devolve into unwarranted DM's out of respect for OP who will "list prices later"

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I don't personally see this as an issue. Boards are being sold without me knowing about it all the time. Be it on eBay, YJ, other forums, etc. Feel bad for 'losing' on something? Just think of all the shit you already have that you don't invest the time in to. Works really great for me!

For the record, I'm all for mandating fixed prices on FS posts. And gazumping should not be tolerated. I'm just saying, ultimately, it's so easy to skirt around the rules. Just list your Cave collection in the Price Check thread because "you bought them 10 years ago" and "you have no idea how much they're worth", I can guarantee you will get a ton of PMs.

nem said:

I don't personally see this as an issue. Boards are being sold without me knowing about it all the time. Be it on eBay, YJ, other forums, etc. Feel bad for 'losing' on something? Just think of all the shit you already have that you don't invest the time in to. Works really great for me!

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I think the point @GeeDee was making here goes hand in hand with your previous comment

nem said:

No price? Cool, move on. It's not hard. Keep an eye on that thread if you want to.

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^ Some people do exactly this only to come back later and see it has been sold with no price listed just random 'PM' posts, hence the feeling they missed out.

@tiff_lee s got the right idea; I think there's a little miscommunication or misunderstanding between nems two posts, though I do get the sentiments behind both.

I did want to add, though:

nem said:

it's so easy to skirt around the rules. Just list your Cave collection in the Price Check thread because "you bought them 10 years ago" and "you have no idea how much they're worth", I can guarantee you will get a ton of PMs.

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tl;dr you're absolutely right and that sucks when that happens but we have rules in place already specifically designed to discourage that and there isn't any excuse for poor due diligence on constantly in-demand items, imo.

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While I'm 300% *not* saying you're wrong, not by a long shot, this is why we have the sold price rules in place. There's a well-encouraged hierarchy of steps of sorts to find prices that would hopefully prevent this very thing. We have the "sold prices must be left in threads" rule so users can use the ~Search Bar~ to easily find past FS threads and base their prices around other completed sales. If they can't find any past sales *there*, THEN they can go to the price check thread. This is assuming they've already exhausted their search OUTSIDE of AP as well (eBay/Yaj sold listings, etc).

And again, I'm not at all saying you're wrong; this definitely happens and with the current rules it will continue to happen, but clearly, we both understand this is just feigning ignorance and shouldn't really be encouraged or +1'd as "good seller ettiquite" at the very least. The hypothetical seller in this case either isn't that bright and doesn't know (or simply refuses) to use the very easy and straightforward search bar which that entire sold-price-listed rule is based around, or they're being willfully ignorant and basically making an "interest check" in the price check thread, shooting for the exact back-door results that anyone could see coming from a mile away. It's one thing if you've got something, say, undocumented, that nearly no one has heard of before or only comes around once a millennium via unholy ritual, but it's just piss poor due diligence or shady selling etiquette when you can't make up your mind on a price for your mushihimesama...imo.

There was always a certain level of hobbyist respect that I find missing nowadays. Everyone is so fast to look for a profit on this hobby that the camaraderie is gone. I’ve been harping on this so long that I’m sure I’m a broken record at this point. We’re all in this shit together here, anyone with an ounce of courtesy should be able to follow some simple rules. If you don’t, you should be called out on it.

Uroko Sakanabito said:

Hate me but 75% of the pricing feels like wet dreams.

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For sure, there's too many scalpers and flippers.
Most working boards are not worth the asking price.

Best to sit back and not buy anything and let the prices come down a little.
Last year i only got junk PCB's for myself , not one of them more than £40, and normally in bundles for less.

At this point if i want a new game i'll just hack another board to play it

BanishingFlatsAC said:

There was always a certain level of hobbyist respect that I find missing nowadays. Everyone is so fast to look for a profit on this hobby that the camaraderie is gone. I’ve been harping on this so long that I’m sure I’m a broken record at this point. We’re all in this shit together here, anyone with an ounce of courtesy should be able to follow some simple rules. If you don’t, you should be called out on it.

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Unfortunately in my experience this ends up happening in all hobby scenes, grifters get into the hobby and once they see there is some easy money to be made scalping/flipping etc then that's all they really care about.

tiff_lee said:

Unfortunately in my experience this ends up happening in all hobby scenes, grifters get into the hobby and once they see there is some easy money to be made scalping/flipping etc then that's all they really care about.

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Oh for sure. Having resellers is gonna happen but when the everyday hobbyist decides. “Hey fuck it, I’m gonna get mine too”, that’s when the problem starts. I’m sure there are lots of folks out there like myself who long for the state this hobby was in the early 2000s, but I know that’s not gonna happen. Anyway, sorry to derail things a bit.

tiff_lee said:

^ Some people do exactly this only to come back later and see it has been sold with no price listed just random 'PM' posts, hence the feeling they missed out.

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I can understand that, but it is what it is. I'm more than OK with avoiding these sellers in the future.

There's very few Vertexers being sold on this forum. Anything on offer here will come up for sale again.

Also, don't believe the lies that if you don't buy now you will pay double in a year. 100% guaranteed it's the owners perpetuating that myth. I wish these people would fuck off and get into crypto or NFTs.

tiff_lee said:

Unfortunately in my experience this ends up happening in all hobby scenes, grifters get into the hobby and once they see there is some easy money to be made scalping/flipping etc then that's all they really care about.

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See: All of pinball and your local arcade FS groups

nem said:

I wish these people would fuck off.

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ftfy. If I never again see some nonsense from a dipshit with a monkey PFP, it'll be too soon.

If there's one thing I've learned for sure about crypto, it's that once it's brought up, supporters will find the post and make sure to keep talking about it where it maaaay not really be welcome

Idk about you guys, but I'd like to just keep talking about video games

Wrapping back around again:

nem said:

Also, don't believe the lies that if you don't buy now you will pay double in a year. 100% guaranteed it's the owners perpetuating that myth.

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I really do like to believe this is the case- that it's just some long-haul FOMO salesmanship. Ergo, another reason why putting prices readily on display from the jump is a good idea (imo). Makes it at least a little harder to "accidentally" drive up prices in the privacy of DMs if you're required to set a starting price and negotiate from there. If you start at 1K and you end up marking your sold price as 4K, whatever happened, happened, and at least you're following the rules and setting a clear dollar-amount precedent for future sales. If you want top dollar and *start* at 4K, future prospective sellers will see that you slowly marked down over time until you finally found a reasonable number that buyers would accept. Win-Win for everyone.

nem said:

I can understand that, but it is what it is. I'm more than OK with avoiding these sellers in the future.

There's very few Vertexers being sold on this forum. Anything on offer here will come up for sale again.

Also, don't believe the lies that if you don't buy now you will pay double in a year. 100% guaranteed it's the owners perpetuating that myth. I wish these people would fuck off and get into crypto or NFTs.

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Don’t forget about the sellers who need to recoup shipping on their mistakes. This, single-handedly drove up the price of all candy cabinets in the US. Couple that with the “the supply is drying up, buy now” threat made this hobby into what it is today.

Imo, the import market/business (as in, bulk container orders direct from overseas) is very different for obvious reasons compared to simply placing rules on sales between two collectors and their possessions.

If someone is looking to buy a cabinet from another collector, it is also just as easy to look up and find going rates for the more commonly sold models- both in collector quality and "fresh off the boat" quality prior to making a FS thread/post.

We've also often asked the (plethora of) new users who join AP solely to buy candy that a better idea is to make a WTB thread *WITH* a bounty/budget listed, rather then questioning why there's no gold in the lake. It's been said ad nauseum that collector quality cabs will cost more to have collectors come off of them, as it's often the case that new buyers are looking for cabs that need little work as they have little experience in cabinet maintenence and repair (if it's hard to tell: know that I can't grit my teeth any harder while trying my damdest to be this nice about describing these buyers), so in that scenario it's often become more productive for potential buyers to cast the first stone with a WTB thread mentioning cash and budget range at the ready. The alternative we've seen being nagging other users to sell their cabs unwarranted, which we've also seen complaints from owners about being pestered privately just for posting pictures of their games publicly and the like.

I mean, there's a reason why a lot of other places have much stricter marketplace rules. There are a lot of grifters, flippers, and beggars who add absolutely nothing of value to the communiity and, in fact, drive up the cost of the things we enjoy because they're only in it to make a quick buck.

I appreciate that this place tries to take a more hands-off approach in the spirit of being more welcoming but this is the unfortunate downside of that. No good deed goes unpunished. I'm all for any tweaking of the rules that erects some fences around the marketplace to keep the barbarian hordes at bay. You certainly don't have to make things as draconian as some of the FB groups and other boards make it... but there's probably a happy medium.

So, what are we asking for here? Here are some of the common themes I am seeing:

1. Require sale prices in for sale threads.
2. Disallow "Interest Check/Make Me An Offer" threads.
3. Some guardrails around access to the Marketplace.

IMO, 1 and 2 seem pretty straightforward to me. 3 gets weird in that I agree that gating behind things like post counts simply encourages low-quality posts and other nonsense to access the Marketplace; instead, I'd suggest that new users have to post in the Introduction forum to get Marketplace access.

My feeling is that trying to get 1 and 2 passed will be more likely if you avoid anything like 3 (or anything beyond that like "dibs must be posted in the thread" type of stuff) as part of the proposition. That said, someone (maybe @GeeDee?) should distill this whole discussion into very specific asks for rule changes/updates, and then loop in Brizzo/DS/Mitsu.

Good luck!

@kazuo

1. Yup I agree, stop that shit/delete any sales post with no prices zero exceptions (aka I don't care who posts it).

2. No, some "home made" items/PCBs drop in price with larger orders.
Its not possible for our craft folks to simply say "this is for sale for X" because depending on how many express interest/order the price can change.
Yes its very abusable (that's why I was the first one in this thread to point out this loophole) however that don't mean it should be disallowed.
How about some personal responsibility? Don't take the private auction bait/don't PM the seller.

3. Why not give it some real teeth? No access to the sales section unless the account is at least one year (12 months) old, with at least one login a month since its creation. If you want to be part of this site step up, noobs have to prove themselves and posers/flippers will be restricted.