This is a widespread problem?
I've never had any issues with Naomi on any VGA capable monitor or TV.
- Thread starter UltraSean
- Start date
I've never had any issues with Naomi on any VGA capable monitor or TV.
J
jassin000
The problem can be corrected by enabling a feature called DDSP (Digital Display Sync Processing) on a Extron 580xi.
Far as I've been able to tell both Naomi and DC output an off spec version of a true VGA signal.
OSSC has no issues with it, and analog monitors don't seem to have any issues with it.
"Digital Sync Processing (DSP) is a proprietary Extron technology that addresses potential issues with sync in RGB computer-video signals that could compromise, and even prevent, proper video display."
So lets advance time a bit... To the far off year 2035... Are you going to be connection a 1080p Naomi to any display then?
At the rate we are going we'll have hit 10,000k displays by then, and your 1080p is going to look just as shit (if it even syncs) as 480p looks on a 4k today.
You are going to be re-modding these same consoles every few years, over and over to keep up with the times.
That is so ridiculously wasteful it totally negates any positives attained by the purity of the source video.
As I said to @nam9 we should be searching for the best pre-amp location to tap the purest source vdieo we can from these original boards...
But that is where we MUST STOP! The scaler MUST ALWAYS remain totally/fully upgradable to match with the changing times of display tech.
Sorry to be a douchebag, but anyone who says otherwise is just wrong, and that is the last I'm ever going to say about it because I WILL NOT entertain any argument to the contrary. You are wrong, I said so, and that is IT.
Last edited by a moderator:
yes, but mostly happen with DCs - people connect them to wide range of various TVs or displays.
I have same thoughts, and wondering what exactly wrong with H/V Sync signals there
XtraSmiley
Legendary
@jassin000 has made some good arguments against modding, and others have made some good ones for, but here's one not mentioned by those here, because I think we are the uber collectors and we're forgetting that most retro gamers are not exactly us (or they would be here):
Not everyone owns 20 systems, some people own or only care about 1-2, in which case modding those systems makes sense. Also, despite Jassin's hyperbole about 10k TVs in 15 years, regardless of what we do have, scaling the digital data will be easier and less noisy than analog to digital plus scaling. I'm sure anyone who owns a Naomi that they still care about in 2035 will be happy to mod or scale it then for whatever formate we have.
Finally, with so many DCHDMIs sold, and maybe an option to use it with Naomi, why hasn't the price come down yet?
Not everyone owns 20 systems, some people own or only care about 1-2, in which case modding those systems makes sense. Also, despite Jassin's hyperbole about 10k TVs in 15 years, regardless of what we do have, scaling the digital data will be easier and less noisy than analog to digital plus scaling. I'm sure anyone who owns a Naomi that they still care about in 2035 will be happy to mod or scale it then for whatever formate we have.
Finally, with so many DCHDMIs sold, and maybe an option to use it with Naomi, why hasn't the price come down yet?
J
jassin000
Why would it? The device is selling like hot cakes.
"This Is A Business, not A Charity...
Maybe One Day UNICEF Will Get Into the HDMI scaler Business, Till Then, we are the Guys To See."
LOL you're so extra.
Besides, I highly doubt in 2035 we'll still be using SCART cables. Why wouldn't HDMI be a standard for upscaling then? You act as if HDMI is some black magic connector. Actually, if you're upscaling to 10,000k displays, how is a 1080p upscaled going to look like more shit than a 240/480p?
What's your math on that one?
No you're not.
J
jassin000
A little, I'm not so different from everyone else you know...
I like approval, I liked to be liked!
But at the end of the day I'm on a mission, I can't let a desire to be accepted corrupt my quest/vision for what I see as attainable arcade perfection.
Because HDMI bandwidth is already maxed out in version 1.4a with 4k/3D video.
We can't fit anymore data down the pipe of that connector, so when we jump to >8k it WILL require something different.
Even if TV's of 2035 include HDMI as a form of legacy support they will attempt to scale that resolution to whatever panel native is for them.
As anyone who owns a 4k TV today can tell you...
480p looks so bad, smoothed out edges, muddy textures, etc.
Well the same will be true of your 1080p on 10,000 pixel displays of the future.
What's saying that upscalers of the future won't input HDMI as 1080p or 4k, and output to whatever standard is of 2035?
I mean, that's what SCART IS NOW! No new TV is made with a SCART connector, yet we still support it in our hobby devices...
There's no real good reason to think that upscalers of the future won't support HDMI...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ci44G8j1F0
J
jassin000
I love Dune! 
You just might be the modern day Paul Mohadib of retro gaming.I love Dune!
XtraSmiley
Legendary
No it won't, it will just be a fatter pipe HDMI cable, which is backwards compatible.
https://lifehacker.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-hdmi-2-1-and-8k-tvs-in-2019-1831842410
J
jassin000
So fine, they include a HDMI port that is compatible with current HDMI devices (I don't believe it, but let's say so we can move on to the next issue).
The panel is still going to internally scale that 1920x1080 content to whatever native panel resolution is.
Why would you expect the quality of this scale to be good? It wasn't good on 1080p panels, it wasn't good on 4k panels, it won't be good in the future.
So you'll be going back and removing these mods to replace them with a scaler that supports the (higher than 1920x1080) resolutions of what will be available displays of the future.
Last edited by a moderator:
IIRC Dreamcast and Naomi use DTV resolution, which is 720x480p, and use only one portion of the screen which corresponds to 640x480p, maybe DTV isn't widely supported like VGA.
check this link https://www.retrorgb.com/dreamcast.html
well, yes, but difference is not that big, mainly it is pixel clock - 25.175MHz in 640x480@60Hz VGA versus 27MHz in Dreamcast/NAOMI (which is happened to be the same as DTV's 720x480p).
I suppose the actual problem is horizontal sync pulse width, which should be 96pix @25.175Mhz as per specs, while in DC/NAOMI it is 64pix @27MHz, i.e. notable shorter, and some display devices may not like that.
luckily it is not hardcoded in hardware, but configured via special "Sync width control" register, so in theory BIOS and games might be patched to be closer to VGA specs.
I really want to demolish some arguments in a friendly way about the "why bother with HDMI mods" thing but can we get that moved to a different thread?
---
@MetalliC really interesting about the patch stuff. I think the problems come from the ADC used in modern displays being very picky. Similar to how it might have problems with 240p consoles not displaying.
---
@MetalliC really interesting about the patch stuff. I think the problems come from the ADC used in modern displays being very picky. Similar to how it might have problems with 240p consoles not displaying.
J
jassin000
No need, I know why you think its good... And you know why I think its the wrong approach.
We are just going agree to disagree on this one, as nothing you could ever say to me would make me change my stance.
Don't worry you are among friends, and I'd say the majority of people (at least in this thread) agree with you not me.
Whoa you can read minds over the internet? 
I think I'm closer to your viewpoint than you think because I'm not 100% on the HDMI mod stuff. But I'm still hoping a new thread gets made and all the posts get shifted over before I write out my thoughts. And in case I wasn't clear, just because we might disagree on something doesn't mean we're sworn enemies
I think I'm closer to your viewpoint than you think because I'm not 100% on the HDMI mod stuff. But I'm still hoping a new thread gets made and all the posts get shifted over before I write out my thoughts. And in case I wasn't clear, just because we might disagree on something doesn't mean we're sworn enemies
Discourse like this is how progress is made. Now as far as my specific situation is concerned, the HDMI mod for my CPS2 has provided me a convenient way to stream and record directly off my cab, that’s why I would love to install a Naomi equivalent. As far as OSSC is concerned, that’s definitely worth looking into as well.Whoa you can read minds over the internet?
I think I'm closer to your viewpoint than you think because I'm not 100% on the HDMI mod stuff. But I'm still hoping a new thread gets made and all the posts get shifted over before I write out my thoughts. And in case I wasn't clear, just because we might disagree on something doesn't mean we're sworn enemies
Well, thanks for triggering some interesting topic discussion @UltraSean. Perhaps to answer your question you could follow @jassin000 advice and try adding an Extron RGB unit between the Naomi and capture card with DDSP enables to see if that resolves the issue. Doesn’t need to be a 580 unit. Any RGB unit with DDSP should work.
I also suggested the NAC Splitfire as a JAMMA streaming solution worth checking out, although again for the Naomi you would most likely need an Extron unit between the Splitfire and capture card as well.
For everyone else keen to throw down on the HDMI mod issue... @jassin000 is still right
Digital capture is the next logical step up from RGB modding, and unless I’m mistaken, pretty much as far as you can take these consoles/arcade machines. That is the part that requires a unique, internal mod solution. Upscaling demands are not static, so ideally that step should be external (upgradable).
Here is the real issue though... how should you best output the digitally captured data so that a good external upscaling solution can take over? What widespread digital signal standards are on offer, and will be for some time? Yeah... that’s probably HDMI (or Display Port).
So we’re back to HDMI - but the difference is that HDMI is the connector, not the goal. Fine, make 1080p an output option, but is it possible that the native (or at least line doubled) resolution can be output as well?
PnP 1080p is fine for now, but will still be the equivalent of Scart in 10 years plus...
I also suggested the NAC Splitfire as a JAMMA streaming solution worth checking out, although again for the Naomi you would most likely need an Extron unit between the Splitfire and capture card as well.
For everyone else keen to throw down on the HDMI mod issue... @jassin000 is still right
Digital capture is the next logical step up from RGB modding, and unless I’m mistaken, pretty much as far as you can take these consoles/arcade machines. That is the part that requires a unique, internal mod solution. Upscaling demands are not static, so ideally that step should be external (upgradable).
Here is the real issue though... how should you best output the digitally captured data so that a good external upscaling solution can take over? What widespread digital signal standards are on offer, and will be for some time? Yeah... that’s probably HDMI (or Display Port).
So we’re back to HDMI - but the difference is that HDMI is the connector, not the goal. Fine, make 1080p an output option, but is it possible that the native (or at least line doubled) resolution can be output as well?
PnP 1080p is fine for now, but will still be the equivalent of Scart in 10 years plus...
beast1x5
Professional
I'd be interested in a Naomi HDMi especially since it would make life easy for capturing footage for games like CVS2 and Neo geo battle colliseum via piforce..
Which reminds me , I actually need to update my piforce game list
Which reminds me , I actually need to update my piforce game list
