What's new
By:
Filters

A CAVE Multi is doable for sure, who wants to dig in

Are we at a point now where we can do a full-on FPGA hardware clone of the Cave CV1000, 68000, and IGS PolyGame Master boards? This very much seems possible now with the latest FPGA chips and while it will need a pretty beefy, expensive FPGA, I think the Cave market could handle what it would cost.

I know Cave as a company likes to go after people, but so does Nintendo and there's nothing they (Nintendo/Cave) can really do legally about reverse-engineered hardware of this vintage. As long as there's no OEM Cave code on the box and end-users are on their own to source the ROM data, you should be fine. Even from the patent point of view, the CV1000 is old enough now that any patents, assuming they even filed any, are within a few years of expiring anyways.
 
rewrite said:
randomdoohickey said:
you should be fine
Click to expand...
If you believe that you'll be fine, bring us a product to market :).
But don't expect others to put their necks out there legally based on your forum post, y'know?
Click to expand...
No need for guessing as there's extensive case law on this with many well-known companies failing to keep the clones at bay, e.g. IBM, Nintendo, et al, You'll be fine.

I'm not in a position to make a product like this happen technically, but I'd certainly be willing to help put up bounties to get things going.
 
It most likely can be done without question but...I dont think a Cave CV-1000 repro/multi will happen any time soon because:

  • An acceptable product would have to be an almost 1:1 faithful reproduction of the original boards.
  • You cant source all components on the original boards, ex..CPU so it would have to be recreated in an fpga
  • Not all roms/dumps are available, at least not publicly, giving you access to maybe 2/3s of the library
  • Time/Effort/Risk/Cost to creator vs Reward
  • Cost of final product to recoup investment in development (I would estimate retail cost of a board would have to be around $2-3K)
  • Legal ramifications should IP owners decide to protect their interests
I would spend that kind of money on Cave multiboard without question, but how many people worldwide in this hobby would spend that amount of $$ to make this a worthwhile product to pursue creating? Maybe 30-40?? Whomever makes this will not be targeting collectors that want to own the originals, they would have to target the average arcade hobbyist/gamer. If most people complain about the cost of a multi at the $4-500 range, where you have an even larger/diverse library of games, what are they gonna think about a Cave multi with maybe 10-15 games, even if each original games would cost $1K each and they are getting a bargain in comparison, they would not spend the $$ I think.

Now...all that being said, I still want a proper/accurate Cave multi to happen :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Derick, my thoughts on your points:

  • An acceptable product would have to be an almost 1:1 faithful reproduction of the original boards.
I think almost 1:1, for example Kevtris did the HighDef NES and Analog NT Mini and many think it is 1:1, but he actually adjusted the output so it works perfect with a modern HDTV via HDMI, which most buyers want. It is in fact, NOT a 1:1 of the original output but actually slightly off to make this happen. No one seems to complain about it though!
  • You cant source all components on the original boards, ex..CPU so it would have to be recreated in an fpga
Which I think we would actually want. FPGA may also allow someone to provide the same PCB but with two settings. HDMI version, see above, and real RGB 1:1 version, for the hardcore.
  • Not all roms/dumps are available, at least not publicly, giving you access to maybe 2/3s of the library
Is this true? Really true? No on has them? What about the mighty Derick2k, who owns a shit ton of the actual games! :P
  • Time/Effort/Risk to creator vs Reward
Yes, but even Kevtris did it for free initially!
  • Cost of final product to recoup investment in development (I would estimate retail cost of a board would have to be around $2-3K)
No idea, see above. I don't think so, I think a $500 all in one would sell like gangbusters!
 
What components aren't available? I know hitachi no longer makes the SH3 CPU but there seems to be plenty of old stock and Chinese repos available for good prices too (far cheaper than an FPGA).

What games aren't dumped? The undumped list only lists 3 cv1k games one is just a different rev of a dumped game and the other two note that they're in the hands of people willing to dump. Thats hardly 1/3rd of the games unless there other undumped titles not on the undumped list?
 
I think if anyone is talking about any of this seriously they should look at the 68k boards. The 68k is super well documented, boards and parts are more available, it's overall a simpler product. There are a ton of great titles, and on the same boardset you come up with some other nice titles like Hotdog Storm and Sailor Moon. And almost none of these games are continuing to be sold in any way shape or form, unlike the SH3 games.

CV1000 is exceedingly unlikely at this point in time for so very many reasons.
 
rewrite said:
I think if anyone is talking about any of this seriously they should look at the 68k boards. The 68k is super well documented, boards and parts are more available, it's overall a simpler product. There are a ton of great titles, and on the same boardset you come up with some other nice titles like Hotdog Storm and Sailor Moon. And almost none of these games are continuing to be sold in any way shape or form, unlike the SH3 games.

CV1000 is exceedingly unlikely at this point in time for so very many reasons.
Click to expand...
Agree, would much rather have a multi that would do the 68K games instead before a the CV-1000.
 
We should open up a poll to see how much people would spend to get a CV-1000 repro/multi board.

Im estimating that a repro board would cost about $500 to manufacture maybe a little less, but lets call it $500. You would have to sell those at around $1500 at least to make a profit worthwhile.

Do you guys agree?
 
I totally want both, but 68k is more realistic right now.

I'd like to see the results of that poll for sure.
 
Derick2k said:
Im estimating that a repro board would cost about $500 to manufacture maybe a little less, but lets call it $500. You would have to sell those at around $1500 at least to make a profit worthwhile.
Click to expand...
FPGA based I was estimating more in the range of $5k/board

It would literally take years of work to write the hdl code
 
brizzo said:
Derick2k said:
Im estimating that a repro board would cost about $500 to manufacture maybe a little less, but lets call it $500. You would have to sell those at around $1500 at least to make a profit worthwhile.
Click to expand...
FPGA based I was estimating more in the range of $5k/board
It would literally take years of work to write the hdl code
Click to expand...
=O =O =O
Better get hitachi to remanufacture sh3s :)
 
You best bet is to source the CPUs and sound chip the rest are run of the mill.

All the FPGA code used by the blitter is inside the U4 device and uploaded by the bootloader.
 
I'm pretty sure that such a multi will guarantee you a ultrafast Cease and Decease letter from CAVE....thanks but no thank.
 
rewrite said:
I totally want both, but 68k is more realistic right now.

I'd like to see the results of that poll for sure.
Click to expand...
To that end, you could sell a lot more of them too trying to make basically every major Z80 and 68K-like cartridge system worth mentioning (with pure software, not actual cartridge slots). Once you're into full FPGA land, there's no reason why you can't have a single board that does CPS1/CPS2, F3, MVS, PGM, etc. Most of the work would be done for a Genesis/MD at that point, so might as well have that too to sell a bunch more units. Take a page out of Kevtris' playback book by having a Genesis/MD clone, cartridge slot and all, then have an "unofficial" firmware that does all the other systems.

Darksoft said:
I'm pretty sure that such a multi will guarantee you a ultrafast Cease and Decease letter from CAVE....thanks but no thank.
Click to expand...
Any hardware patents would have expired by the time this comes out and there's no Cave software on it, along with no Cave(tm) logos/branding, so legally there's nothing they can do. Like I said, if Nintendo can't stop the likes of the Super NT, there's nothing Cave's lawyers can do.
 
FPGA solution seems overkill for just the Cave 68000 multi.

I was thinking something more simple. Along the lines of the Irem M8x potential solutions where you'd go about desoldering all the ROMs and replacing them with sockets and pop the multi board on top.

At the point where you're replacing the entire board, it's not really a Cave 68000 multi anymore, it's just an FPGA with ROMs.


randomdoohickey said:
Any hardware patents would have expired by the time this comes out and there's no Cave software on it, along with no Cave(tm) logos/branding, so legally there's nothing they can do. Like I said, if Nintendo can't stop the likes of the Super NT, there's nothing Cave's lawyers can do.
Click to expand...
You're making assumptions is the thing here. You're basing them on very sensible comparable situations, and they make logical sense. But they're still assumptions. And no one is going to risk their neck on an internet laywer's assumptions.
 
Last edited:
brizzo said:
FPGA based I was estimating more in the range of $5k/board
Click to expand...
Crap, look up prices on the best/most powerful fpgas, insane prices X/
Then you talking development time $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ X/ X/ X/ X/
I rather someone spent the time/$$$ developing a better/feature rich scaler that can do 4K since 4K displays are becoming more commonplace and they are getting a lot cheaper.
 
Last edited:
Or you can use MAME, but someone needs to donate the graphics chips for decapping since they are not emulated correctly.

For example in EspRaDe on the "Houoh High School" stage more enemies appear around the boss since the GPU does not signal that the sprite list Q is full in MAME.
 
brizzo said:
Derick2k said:
Im estimating that a repro board would cost about $500 to manufacture maybe a little less, but lets call it $500. You would have to sell those at around $1500 at least to make a profit worthwhile.
Click to expand...
FPGA based I was estimating more in the range of $5k/board
It would literally take years of work to write the hdl code
Click to expand...
The average arcade gamer will pay $500..$1500 the average arcade gamer will think about it..5k the average arcade gamer will say, hell no and the hardcore gamer might pass. The casuals arcade gamers are happy with a MAME box or Steam/console ports for CAVE, casuals are what? 90% of the population, average are what? Less than 9% and hardcore are what 1%? No money to be made at those prices and you open up yourself to a boat load of liabilities. I always wander how many units of CPS2 and NEOGEO multi has been sold and if it was worth it, it is not like DS is buying private planes, luxury mansions and high end horizontal orientation entertainers or maybe he is:)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top