Collective inquiry to Sanwa

[erzane]

Hi everyone

At that time, Sanwa did some great quality 1player CPs compatible with Sega cabs which are unfortunately no longer available since a few years. I'd like to propose to you to participate to a collective inquiry which we would submite to Sanwa once we have enough signatures ( I don't know how we'll proceed but the idea is growing in my mind since a few months now). Maybe, if we are a hundred we could ask them to produce these CPs again. Probabily most members here would be interested by having a few of these CPs right ?

These CPs would be great to play Star Wars Trilogy or games using a Virtual On like joystick or a rotary stick, but also usefull for all Sega cabs missing their original CPs. I've got one and I assume these Sanwa CPs are a great quality product. The steel is smooth, light and confortable to handle. Also, the solder points are discreet and the U-plate mounting is smart and small. These Cps are just perfect. Ive seen a few CP reproductions but no one as good as the Sanwa.

Sanwa seems to be an open company. If we could talk with them and expose our needs, maybe they will take time to think about it. Maybe they will accept to produce a limited quantity if they have the guarantee that they will all sold out if we offer to pay in advance. We could also ask Sanwa to produce custom CPs. Even if the price would be higher than usual I think it would be really great if they offer this service.

If we are enough on this this project could come true next year. It would be great! What do you think about it?
Waiting for your return

 

[erzane]

I got some good news from Sanwa. They are open to produce these panels if we order a MOQ of 100 pces. Personaly I'll take five or maybe ten. I'm still waiting on their reply regarding the price but I don't think the price will be expensive. Taking in consideration the price of a 2L12LB (11,110Y), the 1L6B should be cheaper. Also, the Yen is very low, so we should all save money on this opportunity.
It's a great news that Sanwa accepted because I've already sent a few inquires to them concerning this in the past and they always replied by the negative.

 

[nem]

MOQ is for a single buyer. You would have to order the whole lot of panels.

 

[notsonic]

Would these be blank panels or include an overlay?

 

[erzane]

In opposite to refractory opinions, the Sanwa CPs for the Astro are the best we can find in anyways, no comparaison to my opinion. You'll never find such a degree of precision of manufature since Sanwa have access to better machines, that's why their CPs are a bit more expensive :

1. precision of the application of the earth screw : it's proper, clean and precise (check both sides).
2. precision of the application of the U-plate, which is the most important part of the CP (the thickness and the solder points). 3. solder points are applied with a more effective and precise methode which leaves less deposite/volume and permit a more plane surface (they are many methods used to solder the U-plate and the screw and cheapest methods leaves more deposit and volume).
3. shape/finitions of the U-plate.

Thank you!

nem : if 100 members are whishing to get a CP I'll be happy to collect the money then send it to Sanwa. Also, to reach the MOQ quicker, it'd be great if each of us take a few. Personaly I'd like two or three. Still usefull for further restoration.
When the CP lot will be ready, each member can send an email to Sanwa to ask them to send the CP to his adress.

notsonic : if Sanwa do not make it, the overlay is not an issue since Alberto and others do very accurate overlays. But I'll ask Sanwa anyway.

Edit : Ive just sent an email to Sanwa about the unit price and the overlay.

Ps. what we can also ask to Sanwa is, if it's possible to order different type of CPs. Maybe some of you wish to have a 2 X 3, some others an 1 X 6.

 

[nem]

Ask Sato again about the terms.

I have a hard time picturing Sato wanting to collect postage costs from dozens of buyers and then sending panels individually.

 

[erzane]

I got a reply from Sanwa. The unit price for the 16LB CP without any overlay is only 6550 JPY.
Since japanese yen is very low nowadays, that's a pretty fair price to my opinion.

Now the question remains about the way we should proceed to get our panels. My idea would be the following :
Once enough members have been gathered for 100 units, each buyer would send the amount related to the number of panels desired to an account opened by Sanwa (maybe Paypal or other paiement method of your choice) and once the panels are produced, each order would leave from Japan depending on the number of panel purchased by each customer (each customer adding the shipping price as an extra payment).

Let me know if you agree with that

 

[erzane]

I just received an email from Sanwa saying that they are trying to negociate with the factory to reduce MOQ.
It's an spontaneous offer from Sanwa so I guess they has good will on this matter.
I'll update you soon.

 

[notsonic]

I'm honestly much more interested in overlays than the panels. The problem with that I'm sure would be minimum orders. For example I'd be interested in upwards of 4 1L6B panels, but I'd want 4 different overlays.

6550 yen is pretty cheap though.

 

[ImportantBet]

Is there a method we can send the money to Sanwa directly instead? Someone gathering a collective fund for 100 pieces could go so wrong in many ways.

Edit: nevermind, just read post #7 after #5

 

[xb74]

This is a fine idea and am glad Sanwa are open to this

 

[Kidkaos]

$45 per panel is a great price, shipping would be killer I suspect. Best bet might be to ship all to a U.S address for us in the states and just ship from there with price divided by panel/buyer tacked on to shipping rate. Not sure what else would be more cost effective.

 

[erzane]

Thanks for your comments! Yes, $45 is a fair price.
Sanwa will probabily tell us how to proceed regarding the shipment once they have finish the negociations with the factory.

> Kidkaos : your idea is good. Let's see how the topic will evolute then we'll be able to discuss about all this in time with Sanwa. I asked Sanwa to create a bank account where we all could send the money and they told me that they will reflect on this. After this, we'll talk about the shipment and I'm sure we'll find a solution regarding to this matter. The most important now is to fix the MOQ issue I guess.

> notsonic : Sanwa still negociates with the factory for smaller MOQ. If you wish to order 4x 16LB CPs you'll have a good opportunity to send them to anyone on the forum who does overlay reproduction work and you will have a few perfect CPs then.

The reproduction work of most of the guys who's involved in repro overlay printing on this forum is great, I'd say identitcal to any original overlays. But the CP itself, the plate, is a much more difficult process, that's why Sanwa CPs will be the best for all of us I guess regarding it's cheap price. And if we all take about four or five CPs each, even if the MOQ will be still 100 pces, we could reach the top quick enough. So, imagine if the MOQ can be lower after negociations...

If this deal is a success we'll have more opportunities to talk with Sanwa on future projects. I guess it would be great if Sanwa would be our partner on all CP project. If Sanwa succeed to negociate in our favor with the factory, it will open an attractive filed of opportunities for all of us.

Also, our partners on the forum who work on reproduction overlays will have a standard regarding most of our future projects. Which can be great since these repro overlays will be well cut and fit to our new CP standard.
For exemple, not every Sega CPs - at least from the Astro to the NC series - does have the same shape. Both lower angles are a bit different by a few degrees, which makes standard repro overlays a bit difficult to make since if we want an accurate cut of the repro to fit our former CP, we should ship the CP to the overlay maker each time. If we have all the same CP shape, it will be much more easy to get a perfect cut regarding our future repro overlays.

I bought an Astro overlay from alberto once, which is great, the best quality Ive ever seen. But regarding the cut, the overlay didn't fit my Sanwa CP well (not only the holes which can be adjusted, but mostly both lower angles which are less pronounced on the Sanwa CP since its shape is more smooth). I wanted to ship my CP to alberto but I don't want to take the risk to ship my only Sanwa CP to the other side of the planet, that's why it would be great to have more Sanwa CPs at hand then alberto will also have a modele for this kind of order and could adjust the cut of the overlay especially to the Sanwa CP, which could be a common standard if we all have a few in near future.

 

[erzane]

I've got news from Sanwa. I'm waiting for their reply about the adjusted price for 70 pces. This way, we can get an aproximation in the case we want to order less than 70 pces :

 

[erzane]

Update from Sanwa :

- Unit price would be around 8'000 jpy + shipping for a MOQ of 50pces. Still an affordable, and I assume a decent price.

- Shipment : each order can be shipped directly from Sanwa to buyers. So, this make things easy.

- Paiement : it seems that each buyer could send his money to Sanwa in order to get his CP. I'll have to confirm this but all seems to go in that direction.

So, that project seems to grow and concrectize and if we all order two or three CPs, the shipment price will not be too expensive and we'll still make a good deal. Also, the number of buyer would reach 50 pces more quick that way.
I guess two or three CP can be usefull since we all want more cabs at home right ? Playing SF2 on two cabs the Kaizen way is ''The Way'', right ? And god knows that the CP gives his spirit to a cab

I still maintain that Sanwa CPs are superiors. It's up to you to appreciate this point of view or not but as far as I could compare different ways to make these panels - especially the U-plate which is the most delicate part of these CPs - it's a matter of precision due to the use of more performants (probabily more expensives) machines. Sanwa U-plates are made with machines which allows to do some more precise and stronger solderings.

They are several ways to solder and it seems that the U-plates based on most repro CPs are soldered by a cheaper way.
Let's compare both soldering method on the pictures below : ''A'' is made with a solder gun like ; ''B'' is made with a kind of electric beam which goes trough both plates in order to solder them. The ''B'' way needs a more performant machine and make stronger and cleaner soldering.

The ''U'' shape of the U-plate on Sanwa CPs is also made by a more specific machine. I asked a manufacture in Switzerland to make me a repro CP at the time and the owner explained me some things I did'nt know. For example, the U-plate from Sanwa is difficult to reproduce since only a few machine can do it. He also explained to me about the soldering methods mentioned above.

Steel is also important. Some says ''steel is steel'', but I'd say that japanese steel is made by different rocks than steel having another origin. Also, I doubt Japan will make steel with rocks from other countries. It's still a possibilitiy regarding worldwide business opportunities and globalism but I guess there is enough ressources in Japan to make steel there. To my opinion, there is no needs to take raw material from elsewhere. This can be open to debate since I'm not sure that Taiwanese steel isn't made with japanese rock or ''vice-versa'' and I'm not an expert on that matter but I guess Sanwa CPs are made with japanese steel.

I had several occasions to compare japanese MDF wood plates with Swiss MDF wood plates and the difference was evident. Japanese wood is more smooth/tender (having different color too - more yellow). I also had the opportunity to compare MDF in other countries in Europa and Japanese wood was still singular. So, I guess that's the same regarding the steel. When the Swiss manufacture made my repro CP the steel was more rigide and much heavier. Also, taking the exemple of the screws, we all know that japanese screws are the best, at least at this level of usefulness.

So, I know that several members will say that's not true and maybe they will be arrongant, treating me by all names but I don't care since I always listen my instinct and my appreciation when I touch or see something and this way of doing things will never leave me. Now, maybe Taiwanese steel or wood are also comparable since Asian rocks and woods are quite similar but I still prefere having a japanese panel on my japanese cab. We all know that people restoring motorcycles are mostly such picky as me on this.

Some people don't want to considere the aesthetic side since they only need convenience (the utility) and I can understand it since we all have different sensitivity and needs. But for those who are also interested by the aesthetic and quality of matter, I'd say ''difference is on the detail''. I suggest you to take a closer look at the Sanwa CP then you'll notify these CPs are superiors. Personaly (but it's only up to me), solidity and technical aspect aside, I don't want a CP with some solder points like we can find on most repros CPs. Also, I think that for a part of the given size, it could even break with time and micro-vibrations.

Overlay :

Alberto makes really good overlays, probably the best and his service is really good too. Also, I consider that it's not really important to have an ''original'' overlay nowaday since Sanwa don't owns the Sega rights anymore anyway. An overlay is just an overlay, like the other stickers based on our cabs which are mostly all repros, and we'll never notice the difference. I don't want to make a bad opinion (publicity) on Alberto's CP and I hope he'll not take it the wrong way but even if some members would prefere Sanwa CP there will be a lot of opportunities for Alberto to make new overlays on these CPs. Then, with his contribution on overlay, some of us will have the ''perfect CP''.

Thanks for those who support and understand the meaning of that project.

 

[kevinddr]

Will it be possible to get NNC, Astro, and Blast overlays cut for these new production Sanwa panels? If so I'll gladly buy around 20 or so, possibly even up to 30 if it helps reduce the price. I can pay in JPY directly to Sanwa immediately and I live in Tokyo so shipping will be easy.

Of course, in asking this question, I'm also indirectly saying that I'd gladly purchase 20 or more of those overlays adjusted to fit these panels from Alberto or a similar quality overlay producer.