How do you add recoil to Sega Type II guns? What is needed and is there a pinout to help show how to do this?

[arcadeWC]

I would like to add recoil to a Sega Type II gun setup and really don't know where to start. I believe you need 24v power supplies - how/where do they connect to the guns? What else is needed to add to the guns themselves to make them recoil? Is there a tutorial anywhere to addresses recoil for Type II gun setups for Naomi, Chihiro, Lindbergh?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Derick2k]

I know @twistedsymphony was looking into using namco guns which have the recoil with sega games I think, not sure if ever got into it though. I would say check with him.

 

[bagheera369]

Recoil in TC guns is accomplished with a a solenoid, driving the metal "slide" fixture, and covered with the plastic shell.
One in TC 1-3 guns requires 24V DC, which is supplied with a separate power supply , just for the guns...inside the TC cabinets.

The trigger relay that operates, is on the I/O board, and not in the gun pcb itself. So signal goes from trigger, to I/O board, which fires the relay telling the I/O to fire the 24V line, to activate the solenoid. (of course, happens in milliseconds)

To put that setup in a HOD gun, would be truly impractical. Taking a HOD IR sensor from inside a sega gun, and converting it inside a namco gun, is the more plausible option, but still exceedingly difficult. Due to the I/O boards not being the same, you'd basically have to build your own relay board that tells the 24V line to fire, and install it between the guns trigger switch, and the I/o board.

What would be more reasonable is to start looking at Ghost Squad guns, as they are IR, and use the similar, if not same, IR setup as HOD2 guns, along with the same analogue I/O and gun board. Sure, it's rifles over pistols, but there is recoil, and all the wiring needed would already be there in the Ghost Squad manual, rather than rigging your own complete setup from a Namco gun conversion.

 

[Gakman]

HoD2 and GS setups are the same, except gun plugs. GS rifles plug on a fuse board (where 24V arrive) and after go with another wire to gun board. HoD2 guns directly plug to gun board. The rifle solenoid is to big to fit inside a gun, but perhaps another can be used (Namco one ?).

 

[twistedsymphony]

As others have stated adding recoil to a gun that was not designed for recoil doesn't make much sense.

The setup is just a simple 24V solenoid similar to the ones used in pinball machines, you can have it strike against a metal plat for the "kick". You then switch the power to it with a relay triggered from the appropriate output pin on your I/O board. Just the solenoid goes in the gun with 2 additional wires running down to your machine to the relay. The problem is the housing itself needs to be designed from the ground up with the hard mounts for the recoil mechanism. Typically these mechanisms take up a lot of space too so the housing needs to be intelligently designed to fit around it, making it even more difficult to "retrofit it".

the better option is to take a gun that already has recoil and then swap in the Type 2 sensor unit.

Really though you need to define what game(s) you want to use this with. most of the Sega games that use the Type II IR unit are not designed to provide a recoil signal.

There are some (shitty, IMO) methods around that that some recoil guns use; that is to simply fire the recoil whenever the trigger is pulled, but honestly this is kind of dumb as they will fire the recoil even when the game doesn't call for it, like during cut scenes when you're not allowed to shoot, or when you're out of bullets. Honestly if the point of having recoil is to make the game more immersive, you lose that as soon as the gun feels like it firing with no bullets.

 

[arcadeWC]

Thanks for the information. I guess I assumed some of the Type II IR gun games (Sega) were designed for recoil or FFB, but I guess I am wrong. Perhaps I saw a few of the newer Lindbergh games (HOTD 4) that I "thought" had recoil/FFB but I may be mistaken or seemed to have options for the 24v power supplies. I was only really interested in the Sega gun games (net boot) and if they were not designed for recoil then I guess it is a moot issue. I was also looking into the Airtrak USB guns and they are advertised as recoil and use with some MAME games or perhaps eventually the mini I/O USB/JVS board that is being discussed on the forums. My simple thought was the recoil or FFB gives games a more "arcade" feel to them versus console and might add something to the games. Perhaps I was thinking of Time Crisis or other games that were maybe designed with this concept in mind. I won't worry about it - FFB for the driving games would probably be more worth the effort if someone figures out a universal FFB for all the Sega driving games; let's hope.
Thanks anyway.

 

[twistedsymphony]

Some Type II games DO have recoil
the Ghost Squad "Assult Rifle" style guns do, I believe some of the newer pistol games such, as Golden Gun, do as well.

NONE of them however use the old NAOMI-era gun housings. It's not something you can retrofit into your existing guns, you'll need to buy whole new guns. Similarly it's not something that older games will support unless they were developed for recoil from the start.

HOTD4 does not have recoil, but it does have rumble. which uses a motor with an off-set weight similar to the rumble feature in home console controllers. This is a completely different type of "feedback" that is incompatible with recoil games. If you feed a rumble signal to a recoil setup you'll easily burn out the solenoid and/or relay.

 

[Gakman]

2 Spicy! and Golden Gun share the same gun with recoil (and I'm looking for 2 of these guns). Ghost Squad serie (GS, GS Evo, Operation Ghost) use same rifle with recoil. As twisted said HoD4 has rumble. Rambo can handle recoil, too. It seams some Rambo cabinets have GS rifles with recoil, other have HoD4 uzis but without rumble.
GS rifles can support HoD4, but you only have the recoil 1 time at the start of shooting. It's not usefull, but I've already played like that without burning the solenoid.

 

[arcadeWC]

Is HOTD4 the only game that supports the "shaker" or rumble function? Or can this be used in other Naomi/Chihiro/LIndbergh games?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sega-Lindbe...144741?hash=item41c0994665:g:HJMAAOSwA3dYVVfx

 

[NathanDrake]

HOTD4 is the only game used the rumble (it's a 5v supply)

Like twistedsymphony says, the Naomi doesn't have recoil natively so it won't works.

Only Ghost Squad works properly with recoil on type 2 (I have this Gun Cab)
You need an extra supply like I sell on my topic and also a solenoid in you gun case of course
https://www.arcade-projects.com/for...-standard-ttx2-spare-ring-etc.3114/post-41956


You can extend the compatibility list with Lindbergh (except HOTD 4 of course) and Ringedge but you need to change your io type 2 by a type 3.
After you can play Rambo or Operation Ghost with recoil for example.

 

[tangodownNZ]

Recoil in TC guns is accomplished with a a solenoid, driving the metal "slide" fixture, and covered with the plastic shell.
One in TC 1-3 guns requires 24V DC, which is supplied with a separate power supply , just for the guns...inside the TC cabinets.

The trigger relay that operates, is on the I/O board, and not in the gun pcb itself. So signal goes from trigger, to I/O board, which fires the relay telling the I/O to fire the 24V line, to activate the solenoid. (of course, happens in milliseconds)

To put that setup in a HOD gun, would be truly impractical. Taking a HOD IR sensor from inside a sega gun, and converting it inside a namco gun, is the more plausible option, but still exceedingly difficult. Due to the I/O boards not being the same, you'd basically have to build your own relay board that tells the 24V line to fire, and install it between the guns trigger switch, and the I/o board.

What would be more reasonable is to start looking at Ghost Squad guns, as they are IR, and use the similar, if not same, IR setup as HOD2 guns, along with the same analogue I/O and gun board. Sure, it's rifles over pistols, but there is recoil, and all the wiring needed would already be there in the Ghost Squad manual, rather than rigging your own complete setup from a Namco gun conversion.

Thanks to @twistedsymphony I have just finished my Ghost Squad gun to fuse board to gun sense board to ultimarc U-HID to PC project. I just finished testing the axis and buttons in the game controller settings in windows and all works fine.

@bagheera369 it sounds like you know about the recoil circuit. I have 24 volts going into the fuse board. I tried splitting the trigger wire from 26RAP pin 7 on the fuse board and wiring it to (what I believe is the recoil signal wire) 1PGUN, pin 13. But this just seems to short out the trigger on the gun protect board.
I thought what I will try next is to touch a 5 volt wire to the 1PGUN wire from pin 13 and see if this fires the solenoid.
Obviously I am trying to fake the recoil here but I think I should be able to do this. I am just not sure how to send a signal to fire the solenoid. I do want to send the signal through the fuse board as this is how it is designed to work, probably through the mosfets on the fuse board.

The two wires you can see in the photo are the trigger wire and the 1PGUN wires coming out of RA26P on the fuse board.
At this stage I am not worried about the tigger. I am just trying to get the solenoid to fire using the 1PGUN wire, pin 13

Any help would be greatly appreciated and this should help others in this thread as well.

 

[bagheera369]

Rise from your grave, thread!!!

https://segaretro.org/images/5/55/GhostSquadEvolution_Lindbergh_US_DigitalManual.pdf
Trace down the gun lines, on page 84/85

At this point, its been years since I've touched one of those, but the FET's on that fuse board, work the same as they do on a Pinball machine, and are what is controlling the release of 24v to the gun solenoid.
You'd be best set looking at the input and output of those FET transistors to find what pins/wires you are needing to look at, in order to get the FET to drive 24v to the gun.

I'm afraid that's as much as I have for you.

As always, be careful, and do your research, before just tapping wires to stuff.

 

[tangodownNZ]

Rise from your grave, thread!!!

https://segaretro.org/images/5/55/GhostSquadEvolution_Lindbergh_US_DigitalManual.pdf
Trace down the gun lines, on page 84/85

At this point, its been years since I've touched one of those, but the FET's on that fuse board, work the same as they do on a Pinball machine, and are what is controlling the release of 24v to the gun solenoid.
You'd be best set looking at the input and output of those FET transistors to find what pins/wires you are needing to look at, in order to get the FET to drive 24v to the gun.

I'm afraid that's as much as I have for you.

As always, be careful, and do your research, before just tapping wires to stuff.

Thank you very much bagheera369!

There are some nice clues there.

I traced the lines but seem to come to a dead end. I still can not figure out the fets and where they are on the schematic? I only get as far as RA60P pin 53 (I/O board), and the end of the line at grid line “A”

I’m also wondering if I identify the mosfets on the fuse board, what to do next. I still don’t know how this will help with the recoil signal wire. Maybe I can find out the voltage going in and coming out of the mosfet, but I am really not sure