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twistedsymphony

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I've Started a Spread Sheet listing Confirmed and speculated working models as well as confirmed non-working models. you can view the spreadsheet here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HfY6nwoDXw9qPSlJycNuzhJRumG9Adbb2GCb9MV6R3o/edit?usp=sharing

if you know of a working model post up pictures with the full model number in this thread and I will add it to the spreadsheet.


Original Thread:
-------------------------------------------
So Last night I was helping a friend fix a Golden Tee with a bad monitor (necked tube :( ). he was going on about how he was able to hook up his Dell LCD to test it but he wanted to put a Westinghouse in there to replace the CRT but the Westinghouse wouldn't show an image.

I though this GT board was VGA for sure since there's no way a 15K output would work on an LCD... but I measured the frequency on the sync pin and sure enough it was 25K...

I started doing some research and apparently there are some LCDs that do actually support 25K, mostly older Dells and Vewsonics with a few other brands.

I found a small thread on this on KLOV: http://forums.arcade-museum.com/archive/index.php/t-112911.html

From that these are some confirmed models (listed at the end of this post)
Someone in that thread is also claiming he has an LCD that can do 15K through the VGA port with a sync splitter but provided no other model information.

Obviously even if these work in place of CRTs there are other potential issues such as lag and aspect ratio, HOWEVER having an LCD that works with medium resolution would be fantastic for bench-testing... This also means that in games like Daytona USA and Virtual On that support Spectator Monitors could be used with an LCD natively instead of using the crappy Gonbes converter.

I've got a CraftyMech TPG that does Medium resolution and supports H/V separated sync so I'll be building a VGA adapter and testing every LCD I own to see what's what.... I'd be interested in starting a list of non-CRT displays that support 25K and 15K resolutions. A lot of these display actually list the horizontal sync range in the product specs so that could help narrow down where to look as well.

Known compatible displays so far:
Dell E207wfp (displays permanent error message)
ViewSonic VX2433wm (no error message)
Synaps MB24WKH (no error message)
 
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twistedsymphony

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doing a general search for monitor PDF khz to find spec sheets of various monitors I found the following models that (on paper) should support 25K and a few that should also support 15K
4:3
HP L1910
HP L1950G
HP L1951G
HP LP1965

16:9
BenQ G2411HD
HP LE2201w
HP W2072a
HP V221
NEC LCD6520L (officially Supports 15KHz RGB, and VGA but NOT 24KHz).
Viewsonic VA1932WM
ViewSonic VA2012w-2 (15KHz+)
ViewSonic VG2230wm-1
ViewSonic VG2437Smc
ViewSonic VP2030b-1
ViewSonic VP2330wb-1
Viewsonic VX2268WM

I also found a number of projectors that supposedly support 15K and 25K resolutions
BenQ MX704 (15KHz+)
BenQ W750 (15KHz+)
BenQ TH670 (15KHz+)
Christie LW25 (15KHz+)
ViewSonic PJ551D (15KHz+)
ViewSonic PJD5126 (15KHz+)
ViewSonic PJD6553w (15KHz+)
ViewSonic PD6223 (15KHz+)
ViewSonic PD6253 (15KHz+)

I also found a few Amiga enthusiasts threads on this topic, the most useful of which is here as they listed out some good display models to look for.
http://www.amibay.com/showthread.ph...ec-multisync-lcd-monitors-work-with-A1200%B4s
Aydin Ranger 5015LP
Aydin Ranger 5021
Commodore 1950
Commodore 1960
Commodore 21inch FST
Eizo 8060H
Idek Iiyama MF-5017
Idek Iiyama MF-5021
Microvitec (Amiga) M1438
Microvitec (Amiga) M1538
Microvitec (Amiga) M1764
NEC Multisync 3D
Nokia 417TV
Sony CPD 1402E
Sony GVM-1310
Sony GVM-2020
Fujilink FU1901W (widescreen, but works)
Fujiulink AT-W19PT (19", 4:3 aspect ratio)

These are the models I looked up that (on-paper) DO NOT support anything below VGA:
Acer AL1916
Asus LS201
Barco MDRC-2120
BenQ Q9U3
Dell 1907FP
Dell 1908FP
Dell E190
Dell E190S
Dell 2001FP
Dell 2007FP
Envision H190L
Envision H716A4
ELO 1528L
Hans-G HU196D
HP L1906
HP LP2065
HYUNDAI L91A
LG N1910LZ-BF
LG L1932TQ-BF
LG L2013-P
NEC 1990SX
NEC LCD2070NX
NEC LCD2190UXI
NEC MD21GS-3MP
Philips 22IE
Planar PL1910m
Samsung 191T
Samsung 193p
Samsung 204T
Samsung 911NT
Samsung 91T
Sony MFM-HT95
Sony SDM-HS95P
ViewSonic VX2000
 
J

jassin000

If your buddy would like a original Wells Gardner k7500 24khz (Golden Tee stock) monitor I've got one.
I can't get rid of this thing for the life of me!

The chassis has been fully recapped and the flyback has been replaced.
The neck board is NoS (I've got the original used neck board as well).
Tube has minor Golden Tee "insert coin" burn, only visible on solid (white) colors.

If you come haul this thing away it's yours free of charge! ;)

Tube not pictured
20140921_201317-1.jpg
 

twistedsymphony

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If your buddy would like a original Wells Gardner k7500 24khz (Golden Tee stock) monitor I've got one.
I can't get rid of this thing for the life of me!

The chassis has been fully recapped and the flyback has been replaced.
The neck board is NoS (I've got the original used neck board as well).
Tube has minor Golden Tee "insert coin" burn, only visible on solid (white) colors.

If you come haul this thing away it's yours free of charge! ;)
That's very kind of you but unfortunately his GT is a really obscure "mini" model with a 19" monitor (it wont fit anything larger), It's a WG K3100 which is apparently a really obscure model monitor as well. My friend is actually selling the chassis to Buffett because even he's never seen one before.

is your K7500 a 25" or a 27"?
 

SNK-NEO-GEO

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Two years ago you could find new Wei or something Arcade CRT on eBay, now there is nothing new so I see the movement for LCD.. There is a local arcade business person in my area that is changing all the arcade CRT for LCD.. he said that the CRTs are failing fast and he does not want to deal with it.. Now, he is buying the 4:3 LCD from a source, he pays $125 for them, they are Dell. When I asked, do the people notice how ugly the games look and the lag? He said no, that they do not notice...May you RIP CRTs.
 

twistedsymphony

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27" so the chassis has the remote board installed, if you remove the board it's the same as the 25" chassis.
I'll ask around and see if anyone needs it. I'm surprised you haven't been able to unload it on CL.
...May you RIP CRTs.
I really don't want this thread to get derailed into another CRT vs LCD discussion. I'm personally a CRT or Die person when it comes to low-res games, but this thread should be about research and identification of LCDs that support those resolutions for testing purposes. No one want to have to maintain a whole CRT setup on their workbench just for testing boards and other equipment, it's much nicer if we can do so with a cheap LCD that doesn't take up much space.

Similarly having such an LCD handy means you can easily take it with you when troubleshooting a machine, if a game isn't displaying anything having another monitor handy to hook up to confirm the board is working is very nice, no one wants to have to lug around a whole CRT setup for that.
 

defor

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Holy crap this thread!

I can confirm that 2001FP will not do anything below 31k (I use these in my JVS dual-screen cocktail endless project table as I needed IPS to be viewable from any angle.. there MAY be some way to get 15k at least into them however if one pokes around on the controller board, as they DO have Composite/SVideo, but I haven't bothered to look much.

Also I've found a number of LCD/Plasma TV's that will do 15k no problem over the VGA port.. in general the common thread is that they are the same model as an SCSRT-equipped model in europe, so the compatibility is "baked in" by design, and by simple removal of the SCART port for US markets.
 
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twistedsymphony

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so I found this thread: http://atariage.com/forums/topic/23...ts-st-low-res-nec-multisync-lcd-1970vx/page-2

According to that the NEC 1970VX and 1970NX both support 15KHz and 25KHz through the VGA port. Photo proof too. Even better is that this was apparently sold as a medical grade monitor so it should have low latency and good picture quality. Another thread on that same forum claims that the NEC 1990VX also supports 15KHz and 25KHz.

Interestingly the service manual claims that it doesn't support below 31KHz... In any case I found a reasonably priced one on eBay so I ordered it up, I also ordered some connectors so I can build a VGA adapter for my Crafty Mech Test Pattern Generator and test out every LCD I can get my hands on.

the spec sheet for my home theater projector (Optoma HD72) claims it sync down to 15KHz too which would be awesome if that's true. since that means I could run a sync separator and play all my RGB modded consoles on that.
 

defor

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I have an Optima HD70, and I can confirm that it will do 15k, never tried 25k though.. the thing finally gave up its ghost, and I don't know if a new bulb will cure it, as it seems to have what looks like a good bulb as it is :P

Sexy news about those NEC's- I think i'm gonna order a 2070NX and see if it also works- if it does, it'd be a drop-in replacement for the panels in my table.
 
J

jassin000

The security office at my company uses these...
SMT-1934%20main%20Website-800x800.jpg


Its a Samsung CCTV LCD for viewing security cams, it will display 15khz no problem... I suspect it will do 24khz, but I don't have a source to test it.
Notice the three input sources above? BNC, HDMI, VGA!

Full specs:
  • 19" SXGA 4:3 TFT-LCD
  • 120Hz refresh rate
  • Viewable area (mm): 376.32(H) x 301.056(H)
  • 1280 x 1024 resolution
  • 5ms response time
  • Brightness: 300 cd/m2
  • 1000:1 contrast ratio
  • NTSC 600 TVL - PAL 620 TVL
  • 3D comb filter, noise reduction
  • RGB input
  • VGA video input
  • HDMI Video Input
  • 2 channel audio input
  • 2w built in stereo speakers
  • Supports vesa mount
 

defor

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I can confirm that it will do 15k
Did you need to use HV sync or did C sync work?
It's been a while, but csync from memory- i actually seem to remember feeding it unfiltered composite video for sync...
but you may want to test
part of this comes from the fact that the HD70 had an OFFICIAL scart adapter that connects to the via port.
bet you can't guess how that works...

I just used a vga to BNC5 adapter to wire it all up in testing, then eventually switched to some custom wired CAT5 baluns.
 
J

jassin000

I wire 15pin D-Sub (VGA) with C-sync on pin #13 only (no V-sync/nothing pin #14).

It seems to be a "standard" because many devices with VGA ports will accept this...
IF they can do 15khz, that's the catch.
 

defor

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right, pin 13 is officially defined in the VGA spec as Csync/Hsync, but a device doesn't have to accept Csync.

TECHNICALLY, we should be trying both LM1881 fed Csync/Vsync and also test proper clean 15k Hsync/Vsync signals like so (of course you can feed it composite sync instead of composite video if that's already available):
schema_scartotovga.jpg
 

defor

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I have, no joke, been thinking for years about making up a tester device to go around to Microcenter/Bestbuy/etc and test the different monitors and tv's for compatibility. Probably use a UVC to get the 24/25k support...
 

twistedsymphony

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I have, no joke, been thinking for years about making up a tester device to go around to Microcenter/Bestbuy/etc and test the different monitors and tv's for compatibility. Probably use a UVC to get the 24/25k support...
I have one of the Crafty Mech Test-Pattern Generators: http://craftymech.com/#

It generates a bunch of standard test patterns and outputs RGB, you can switch between 15K and 25K modes as well HV or Composite sync and even inverted sync signals. or inverted color (for old Nintendo Monitors).

It's got the 10-pin style RGB connector that you find on 90s era WG arcade monitors, so ordered some connectors for that to build my own VGA cable for it then I just plug it into different displays and try both 15K and 25K resolutions as well a various sync configurations.
 

rtw

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It's got the 10-pin style RGB connector that you find on 90s era WG arcade monitors, so ordered some connectors for that to build my own VGA cable for it then I just plug it into different displays and try both 15K and 25K resolutions as well a various sync configurations.
I own this device as well and it's higly recommended to buy one.

@twistedsymphony, how to do you attenuate the signals in your VGA cable ?
 

twistedsymphony

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twistedsymphony, how to do you attenuate the signals in your VGA cable ?
I'm still waiting for the parts to come in. My plan is to simply hook it up raw to start and see how that goes before I add any kind of filtering
 
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