Primal Rage - Supergun power issues

[Chaotic-Strike]

Hey, I recently purchased a dev board that was used for Primal Rage from one of the makers and I went ahead and purchased the Cbox 4 from Time Harvester thanks to its USB inputs. It’s their current model on their site.

Here: https://timeharvest.net/products/ne...ny-jamma-arcade-game-pcb-snk-motherboard-1208

The first hour when I hooked it up to the board it briefly powered on. Turned it off went out to get some s-video cables at the store and now it no longer powers on at all. The voltage meter on the SG reads 5.68 when it’s not connected to anything. However the one time it displayed a number to the board it was much lower than that around 4.60 and then it just shut off and no longer powers it up. I took the board to my local arcade they did a volt meter test and confirmed the voltage is accurate. It still didn’t boot up with the Cbox but when they used an arcade power supply it booted right up. So it appears that I need an arcade power supply to get this thing on. Since I plan on using an USB port for my Hitbox to play I was wondering what super gun would have that option, and would have enough power to boot the board on its own. The Cbox doesn’t have a connector that allows an external one, and it would probably be dangerous to hook another one on since the Cbox has its own power. I was looking to see any recommendation for a new super gun that could power the board with USB on its own that wouldn’t require modification since I don’t have technical knowledge at all for pcbs. I’ll probably just sell my Cbox once I get something better, so I figured this would be the best place to ask.

 

[ekorz]

Power reading while disconnected from a pcb is useless, you can disregard the 5.6v reading.

The only measurement that matters is what the pcb is seeing while powered (and it wants 5.00v). The cbox is powered by a piece-of-shit wall-wart, right? No way is that going to power a giant beast like primal rage.

Rage has LEDs on the main board for 5v High and 5v Low, and my guess is that the low one is lit when you try to boot. 4.6v will not work. You need a real arcade power supply, I’m not sure you can modify the cbox to handle one though. It wouldn’t hurt to get a proper supergun like HAS or a minigun.

Edit: if I’m reading it right it’s powered by a 12v external power supply?!? It’s converting from 12v to 5v internally then. Complete garbage.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Power reading while disconnected from a pcb is useless, you can disregard the 5.6v reading.

The only measurement that matters is what the pcb is seeing while powered (and it wants 5.00v). The cbox is powered by a piece-of-shit wall-wart, right?No way is that going to power a giant beast like primal rage.

Rage has LEDs on the main board for 5v High and 5v Low, and my guess is that the low one is lit when you try to boot. 4.6v will not work. You need a real arcade power supply, I’m not sure you can modify the cbox to handle one though. It wouldn’t hurt to get a proper supergun like HAS or a minigun.

Edit: if I’m reading it right it’s powered by a 12v external power supply?!? It’s converting from 12v to 5v internally then. Complete garbage.

Yeah, I took a picture of the LEDs. Only the 5VLO was turning on along with the green light for the sound board. While the one marked 5VHI stays off.

New Edit: I’m pretty much eyeing to buy the HAS next, but waiting for them to open up and start selling them again. The HAS doesn’t have a USB port from what I can see for my Hitbox, so the next issue besides getting a new power supply for that is getting my Hitbox controller to work with it.

 

[ekorz]

Well 5v hi only turns on if the voltage is too high (so you would adjust the 5v lower if that happened). You basically want neither 5vhi nor 5vlo lit. But that power supply has no chance on a board that big.

 

[plasticfactory]

That is a killer board.

 

[ekorz]

That is a killer board.

Indeed! To that end, when you do get it to boot, hit the test menu and let us know the revision it’s currently running. If it’s an undumped build, you should dump the roms for posterity (and also so if yours dies and you want to restore the dev build it was running, you have it!)

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Indeed! To that end, when you do get it to boot, hit the test menu and let us know the revision it’s currently running. If it’s an undumped build, you should dump the roms for posterity (and also so if yours dies and you want to restore the dev build it was running, you have it!)

Oh, I got it from Chris Tang himself who was a dev for PR, and we had many conversations. It’s the Japanese revision with the better inputs, and you can switch back to the regular 2.3 by swapping the appropriate chips out. I knew what I was buying beforehand. This whopper is even bigger than the already ridiculous sized PR PCB.

He already dumped the chips and didn’t find anything new just the Japanese revision and 2.3. Using that board in mind though I had a buddy who has two primal rage board test it out on one of his boards and if you dump the chips you can convert any 2.3 board to the Japanese revision! He made a guide on it here. I’m actually a really high level player for Primal Rage, and competed at combo breaker to come in at 4th place, which is why I wanted an actual board to play on. Which is also the reason he reached out to me.

https://twitter.com/CSA0905/status/1680662253022879747
https://t.co/YhVGEnvdhz

 

[ekorz]

@Chaotic-Strike very cool. I had no idea JP had better inputs by the way. In what way are they 'better'?

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

@Chaotic-Strike very cool. I had no idea JP had better inputs by the way. In what way are they 'better'?

If you ever played the Midway Arcade Treasures 2 version the Japanese revision has the exact same move list as that release. All specials that requires three buttons to hold in standard 2.3 have been lowered to just one input for example in 2.3 Blizzards freeze breath is holding 1+2+3 then do the motion back forward. While in the Japanese revision it’s just F, F then 1 to do the move. The fatalities inputs are made easier, the eat human command is universal between all characters in the JPN revision instead of each character having their own input for it like 2.3. Every move usually has an easier command.

As most people know Primal Rage got a lot of flack back in the day the negative edge inputs where you have to hold the buttons first then do the motion for specials to work. 2.3 made that easier and the JPN revision that only made it over seas was pretty much intended as another future revision that Chris Tang made in order to fix that, but the team just decided to work on Primal Rage 2 instead of releasing that one and just stopped there. The Japanese version also adds a dedicated start button instead of just using an attack button like 2.3.

Here was just a clip of me just testing out the JPN revision that was dumped to MAME a while back.

https://twitter.com/CSA0905/status/1642638067566534657

https://twitter.com/CSA0905/status/1612999220864192514

 

[plasticfactory]

I really appreciate all that information. I've recently become quite interested in PR due to my own projects and it sounds like I will want to do some ROM swapping.

 

[ekorz]

Here was just a clip of me just testing out the JPN revision that was dumped to MAME a while back.

I think 2.3J is now just called 2.3 new version in mame, yeah?
This move list?
That's probably what I'm running on my pcb currently, I'm just lame and haven't actually played it in a while!

My own 2 cents, if you're serious about playing the game on original hardware, going from a usb control stick (encoding analog to usb) into a usb supergun (usb decoding back to analog) is putting you at risk of input lag. I bet the usb decoder in that cbox is sub-optimal, even if your encoder is fast. If you can swing it, grab something that just takes in analog signals and uses an actual arcade psu (HAS or minigun) and buy/make/mod a stick to send analog controls to it. Nothing is more 'pure' and it's not that hard. Anyway, just something to keep watch for. If you can't feel it, it's fine. But you of all people will probably 'feel' it, since you're competitive.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

I think 2.3J is now just called 2.3 new version in mame, yeah?
This move list?
That's probably what I'm running on my pcb currently, I'm just lame and haven't actually played it in a while!

My own 2 cents, if you're serious about playing the game on original hardware, going from a usb control stick (encoding analog to usb) into a usb supergun (usb decoding back to analog) is putting you at risk of input lag. I bet the usb decoder in that cbox is sub-optimal, even if your encoder is fast. If you can swing it, grab something that just takes in analog signals and uses an actual arcade psu (HAS or minigun) and buy/make/mod a stick to send analog controls to it. Nothing is more 'pure' and it's not that hard. Anyway, just something to keep watch for. If you can't feel it, it's fine. But you of all people will probably 'feel' it, since you're competitive.

Yes, that’s the same move list the MAME team wasn’t aware of revision, and titled it wrong. The Midway team also must not have known they were using the Japanese version when they emulated it for that port. That port in general has a bunch of other speed issues.

We’ve been using the emulation beta in our Primal Rage discord which also has some input lag but fixed a lot of the gameplay. The input lag is part of the reason I wanted a board. Combo Breaker had to use their own super gun set up due to PR’s on going emulation issues, I’m not entirely sure what their set up was exactly. For the controllers a bunch of arcade controllers were plugged into a USB device where they reassigned the controls to each controller for multiple devices. I found some pics of the Super Gun they were using, but it’s no longer made. I didn’t notice any lag or major lag when we played there. The board was over heating though so they had to hook up that blue elf adapter to get it to work for the rest of the matches.

I’m actually not nearly as good on arcade sticks since I grew up mostly with pads on consoles and arcades were pretty much going away when I was old enough to play in them. So that’s kinda why I need my Hitbox to work on the board lag or no lag. I was recommended this project https://ko-fi.com/s/b6c3d01043 by the same friend who converted their 2.3 to Japanese revision. He’s having the same issues as me where his Cbox isn’t powering the board anymore, and he’s getting less returns on keeping it powered up. So we’re both looking to upgrade our super gun to HAS whenever they start selling those, and hope that USB device project gets released soon.

 

[ekorz]

The windy supergun has its own problems!

@Raph_friend is a member and announces stuff here https://www.arcade-projects.com/threads/open-source-usb2db15-for-supergun-adapter.14205/

Undamned usb decoders could also work if you can find some used ones.

What video output are you hoping? Do you have an rgb monitor or do you need it converted too?

I may have some spare parts to help you along here.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

The windy supergun has its own problems!

@Raph_friend is a member and announces stuff here https://www.arcade-projects.com/threads/open-source-usb2db15-for-supergun-adapter.14205/

Undamned usb decoders could also work if you can find some used ones.

What video output are you hoping? Do you have an rgb monitor or do you need it converted too?

I may have some spare parts to help you along here

Wow good to know. Combo Breaker had all sorts of issues with that board, so I don’t blame them. They originally only had two boards and one of them was the original revision before 2.3 and they had to contact Galloping Ghosts just to get someone to send another working 2.3 board.

Anyway, I got a big CRT Trinitron that I use for all my retro systems, so nothing fancy yet. I’m just gonna use composite or S-Video with the board for now till until retro-tink releases their latest scaler with 4K. So for now it’s gonna be on the CRT and the scaler can wait till I can get this thing to actually power up lol.

 

[ekorz]

Gotcha. Unfortunately I have zero composite/Svideo stuff. Maybe @RGB will make his HAS svideo/composite adapter on the next run when he restocks.

Otherwise @Javaguru is perhaps resurrecting the parsec supergun that outputs Svideo https://www.arcade-projects.com/threads/parsec-supergun-project.7765/page-7

Fwiw I believe the windy’s issue was audio related. It has an amp, and could re-amplify audio if you weren’t careful, blowing your speakers or other gear like an audio switch. So you could use it, you’d just have to be vigilant.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Gotcha. Unfortunately I have zero composite/Svideo stuff. Maybe @RGB will make his HAS svideo/composite adapter on the next run when he restocks.

Otherwise @Javaguru is perhaps resurrecting the parsec supergun that outputs Svideo https://www.arcade-projects.com/threads/parsec-supergun-project.7765/page-7

Fwiw I believe the windy’s issue was audio related. It has an amp, and could re-amplify audio if you weren’t careful, blowing your speakers or other gear like an audio switch. So you could use it, you’d just have to be vigilant.

Windy was just what Combo Breaker was using for their Super Gun. And as far as I can tell it’s no longer being sold or being made anymore, so HAS is really the only option right now along with the Parsec SG you mentioned. Neither are up for sale right now, so I’m basically just waiting for them to start selling them again.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Small update recently purchased a newer super mini gun and have a mean well power supply hooked up now, and the board is booting up finally with sound , but the cheap nomie model 2 Sega Genesis AV video cable doesn’t seem to be working, so I’m gonna have to run to the store tomorrow for that. My CRT doesn’t have component ports on the back and the SG doesn’t have S Video support, so I’m stuck with composite for the time being until I can buy a Retrotink.

For my Hitbox though it sounds like all the buttons are mapped backwards. Is there a way to change buttons layout for the Hitbox? This is the one I bought off eBay? I got a preorder for an undamned usb converter that allows mapping on this board so just trying to get something going to play the board while I wait for orders to go out.

 

[XtraSmiley]

Hey, I just saw this thread and wanted to thank you for all the info. Very awesome! I have a PR machine and 2 spare boards. I was looking for an undumped revision number, but it looks like they are all in MAME now.

Do you know what happens if I update my machine one to 2.3J? Since the cabinet doesn't have a start button, will button 1 still start the game?

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Hey, I just saw this thread and wanted to thank you for all the info. Very awesome! I have a PR machine and 2 spare boards. I was looking for an undumped revision number, but it looks like they are all in MAME now.

Do you know what happens if I update my machine one to 2.3J? Since the cabinet doesn't have a start button, will button 1 still start the game?

Hey, my friend Tom who converted his board made a post about the entire set up, and a guide.

You can check it out here

https://forums.arcade-museum.com/threads/guide-upgrade-primal-rage-to-version-2-3-j.526112/

https://drive.proton.me/urls/648W5X...9lWTKxCdCZOU37ZoQBdAwbUc8Erq7mqg#EulYRMV2jH10

To answer your question JPN PR added a dedicated start button that is separate from all the attack buttons. So in an actual cab I imagine that might require a mod with an extra button, but I’m not positive.

In anycase if I were you I would just try it on one of your spare boards, and upgrade to JPN before the cab versions. Then once it’s set up and working you could plan on how to set it up
on an actual cab if you want to.

New Edit: here’s a video of someone with a JPN PR board on their SG it shows all the inputs flashing when they use if it helps you out.

View: https://youtu.be/YFcnkMxiJBk?si=XcowMf1-6pMbNrdt

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Latest update. just bought this SCART to SNES SVideo/composite converter for my super gun 9 pin mini gun, and it still doesn’t work with color. Everything is in black and white. At least I can finally play the game, but I’ve given up on this CRT idea, and I’m just waiting for the latest retro tink release date, so I can buy that to play it on a modern display.