Pre-Order For Mini Cute Production

[hursit]

Then it sounds like the plan of sending @Rg111 frame to you should make it easy to solve the remaining issues?

Do I understand right, @hursit?

Yes my friend, thats right and we are talking about it right now This is the best way.
If the Europe 48cm Tube size is the Same size with WG K7700 , i will find a 48cm tube to attach on that Frame. And it will be better to understand whats going on if we rotate it

Thanks

 

[Rg111]

I'll

Then it sounds like the plan of sending @Rg111 frame to you should make it easy to solve the remaining issues?

Do I understand right, @hursit?

Yes my friend, thats right and we are talking about it right now This is the best way.If the Europe 48cm Tube size is the Same size with WG K7700 , i will find a 48cm tube to attach on that Frame. And it will be better to understand whats going on if we rotate it

Thanks

I'll pull the monitor out after dinner. Im on East Coast time so that'll be another hour.

 

[hoagtech]

I'll

Then it sounds like the plan of sending @Rg111 frame to you should make it easy to solve the remaining issues?

Do I understand right, @hursit?

Yes my friend, thats right and we are talking about it right now This is the best way.If the Europe 48cm Tube size is the Same size with WG K7700 , i will find a 48cm tube to attach on that Frame. And it will be better to understand whats going on if we rotate it
Thanks

I'll pull the monitor out after dinner. Im on East Coast time so that'll be another hour.

Right on RG11. Thanks for helping man.

I really appreciate you doing that for everyone

 

[rewrite]

@Rg111 is a man's man.

 

[RealMFnG]

You're talking a foot in extra wire, probably more. None of these lines are likely to have that much slack. Putting the chassis on the wall or bottom of the cab are very likely to not work out without modifying things. But at least you're measuring and in this instance we'll know. But it still introduces the risk of necking the tube when rotating as some people have found out with E2's that they didn't run the wires right on.

hursit asked for measurements of the wires. I'll take them and pass them on and let him do his magic. I'm not solutioning or designing this, hursit is. Just helping out.

And several people have said you're incorrect in this. That's conflicting information.We need to be figure out who's right, not just "I'm right, I've seen it a bunch of times.". Because when both sides do that, someone is going to be wrong, and it's probably going to be the one that gets followed because that's just Murphy's Law.

I've mentioned seeing the K7000 ground to both the frame and the chassis. But at about 4:1, my experience is the K7000 is grounded to the chassis instead of the frame. Then sometimes not at all. In either of those two cases of being grounded, the ultimate common ground point for the monitor is the dog ears of the tube.

• If grounding to the frame, the frame mounts to the dog ears of the tube
• If grounding to the chassis, the mainboard is grounded through wires to the neckboard->DAG wire->ground strap. Then the ground strap with a tension spring between wraps around the dog ears of the tube

The several people that say I am wrong, let's have them produce evidence otherwise. Let's see those photos.

You seem too comfortable throwing things out there as "should be fine", but an assumption on your part is not good enough for 40 people to lay down $1500 over. I'm a firm believer that it's better to know than it is to assume.

If it seems that way, that is because I am. Some people are bolder than others. Some people are more risk adverse. I am the former; you are the latter. That's cool. People are just driven differently. As for the rest of everyone that has already paid the deposit, I don't see any of those folks asking for a refund yet. The situation as it stands isn't good enough for you because you aren't a risk taking person.

I've never bought from trust hursit but trust he'll deliver. I can see the passion the guy has. I certainly trust Cereth. We are all helping out here and want to see this through. Have faith.

Is this not, almost exactly what a frame is? It's big metal bit, fastened to tube, that holds the chassis. Which is what we've been talking about, and hursit has been talking about redesigning.

Maybe, but let's just pass the info and resources to hursit and let him solution it.

I have a dozen times said "I don't know if it would fit with the frame". So I'm a little lost as to where I confirmed anything of the sort. I haven't even had a frame to test with. Which was the /entire point/ of you doing so with that local Cute. It was the entire point of rg111 shipping his.

I am going to take my WG 19K7000 to my buddy's place and do some fitment tests & measurements, then pass the info to hursit. I was thinking in doing so, I'd save folks the trouble of shipping the frame 100's and 1000's of miles; again, to be helpful. Don't know why that is being misconstrued as otherwise. I offered to ship my entire K7000 to hursit in DM. He said it can't be done due to import/export laws of certain used items into Turkey. If you can get the frame to him, that would be helpful.

I'm not even trying to be rude, but are you reading what I write? Because saying this just screams "I only read part of what you wrote then decided to reply". Because I have honestly said this over a dozen times now that I have not had a frame to test with.

Here's one of those times that you would have read just last night before making your post:

As for the frame, of course I read what you wrote last night. That's why I am taking my monitor to my buddy's to do fitment tests with and without the frame, with the imagination of the mount points not being there (as you said). If you did it already, you wouldn't be asking me to do this, obviously. hursit also asked me for some info on this and will help him get it.

I'll be honest though, I haven't read the 11 other times that you said you don't have the frame.

You do know that all Sega cabs have ungrounded monitors? It's not a risk like you think it is.

Not all. Net City's and New Net City's are grounded.The monitors are mounted to metal frames and the metal frame is grounded. And if you are using a grounded ATX plug, you are properly grounded.

I always ground my cabs and monitors if they are not grounded. Better safe than sorry. Honestly, I started this because when getting into the hobby originally, the AC plugs on the US woodies I was buying were always worn out. Just needed to be replaced with a new AC plug. So much easier to get a grounded AC plug than a non-grounded AC plug these days. So that's how the practice started because all the info I was reading on it when I was a complete newb scared the hell out of me. After having been shocked a few times working on monitors, it still does. So I don't mess around and always ground my cabs and monitors.

How I do this for like the E2 and NAC and the like is without much modification. There is a grounding screw pin on the 120v->100v step down convertor I use. I just run a ground wire from that to the common ground of the cab. Put a connector in between for easy disconnection. The original AC plug is left intact.

 

[nem]

Not all. Net City's and New Net City's are grounded.The monitors are mounted to metal frames and the metal frame is grounded.

Except it's not. The tube is grounded to the metal frame, but the frame isn't grounded to the cab. The monitor frame sits on plastic spacers that isolate it from the rest of the cab. There is no extra ground wire. The stock PSUs used in Sega cabs don't connect DC ground to Earth either (otherwise you would have a ground connection from video ground to common ground to Earth). I own everything from Aero Cities up to NNCs. They're all the same, they're all ungrounded.

You can easily verify this with a multimeter.

If you do have continuity between the frame and the rest of the cab, then your cab has been modified and it's not upto spec. Possible reasons for this are that your missing the spacers (unlikely, because your monitor would be sitting too low and not hitting the bezel at the top), or you have a third party PSU that has DC ground connected to Earth, or some dolt has added an extra ground wire 'because monitors should always be grounded'.

Blast Cities don't have plastic spacers, but the monitor mounts are bolted to the plastic sides, plastic is of course non-conductive.

Also, I've never seen an arcade monitor that isn't grounded to the frame. The dag wire goes over the dog ears, the dog ears are used to mount the tube to the frame. And just to make sure our terminology doesn't differ, the dag wire is the thin metal strap that usually loops around the top ears and has springs hooked to it from the bottom ears. The 'dag' refers to 'Aquadag', the graphite coating that's on the outside surface of the tube. The dag wire also has another wire connected to it that's then connected to the neckboard. Neckboard is connected to the rest of the chassis through the flyback.

 

[RealMFnG]

Except it's not. The tube is grounded to the metal frame, but the frame isn't grounded to the cab. The monitor frame sits on plastic spacers that isolate it from the rest of the cab. There is no extra ground wire. The stock PSUs used in Sega cabs don't connect DC ground to Earth either (otherwise you would have a ground connection from video ground to common ground to Earth). I own everything from Aero Cities up to NNCs. They're all the same, they're all ungrounded.

You can easily verify this with a multimeter.

If you do have continuity between the frame and the rest of the cab, then your cab has been modified and it's not upto spec. Possible reasons for this are that your missing the spacers (unlikely, because your monitor would be sitting too low and not hitting the bezel at the top), or you have a third party PSU that has DC ground connected to Earth, or some dolt has added an extra ground wire 'because monitors should always be grounded'.

Blast Cities don't have plastic spacers, but the monitor mounts are bolted to the plastic sides, plastic is of course non-conductive.

We might be on a tangent here. I'll check this though. My NNC's did come from Yaton .

EDIT: You're right. The Net City and NNC monitors aren't grounded.

Also, I've never seen an arcade monitor that isn't grounded to the frame. The dag wire goes over the dog ears, the dog ears are used to mount the tube to the frame. And just to make sure our terminology doesn't differ, the dag wire is the thin metal strap that usually loops around the top ears and has springs hooked to it from the bottom ears. The 'dag' refers to 'Aquadag', the graphite coating that's on the outside surface of the tube. The dag wire also has another wire connected to it that's then connected to the neckboard. Neckboard is connected to the rest of the chassis through the flyback.

Right. So in the absense of the traditional monitor frame for the K7000, if the earth ground is connected to the chassis, then the monitor is grounded. In the instance of the earth ground being wired to the chassis, it is normally connected at the rear fastener on the heatsink side or at the fastener that holds the HOT's heat sink to the main heatsink.

That is how it was grounded to this K7000 frame, which is made partially of wood.

 

[RealMFnG]

Recorded a short video (1-of-2) lay to rest the ground-to-chassis thing:

The next video will have the frame removed completely.

 

[ReplicaX]

I have only two cabs that have monitors that need isolating transformers, both of them K7000s. I've left both ungrounded. However, this said, they're both wooden cabinets, ie. non-conductive. If they were in metal cabs, I would probably fashion some plastic standoffs or spacers. From what I've understood the whole point of isolation is to provide a different point of neutral, one that's not earth ground. Grounding the frame sounds counter intuitive. But I'm not a tech, I'm just a lowly op.

Then you are asking for problems and risk of shock.

Without an isolation transformer on a required monitor:

1. You are basically running a HOT Chassis. The tube and frame will have 120v through it.
2. With a Hot chassis, you have the potential to accidentally send 120v through your RGB-Sync cable and destroy your game pcb.
3. You are going to eventually blow out your chassis, stressing your rectifier and other power circuits on your chassis without isolation.

Ppl are confusing an Isolation Transformer with ground. The point of the Isolation Transformer is it provides a non-earthing ground isolated power source to the monitor and thus eliminating the power source sending 120v to a grounded frame (monitor frame, the cabinet itself, anything that is used as a field ground). Without it, if line voltage is sent to ground and it is connected to a frame, you are sending that voltage to any other ground connected, like the GND on your video cable to the monitor and shock a user if its field grounded to a metal cabinet.

The isolation transformer is not for:

• Stopping power surges

A k7000 requires a Isolation Transformer, its why every damn WG k7k manual has WARNINGS all over it REQUIRING IT.

Some 90s+ chassis like MS-8s do not require an Isolation Transformer as its built into the chassis PCB. This is why you do not get shocked on many metal JP cabinets like the Cute and Aero. Also why they are all Field Grounded to the Cabinet itself. As they have ISOLATION.

Understand the very basic theory of an Isolation Transformer:
An isolation transformer allows an AC signal or power to be taken from one device and fed into another without electrically connecting the two circuits. Isolation transformers block transmission of DC signals from one circuit to the other, but allow AC signals to pass. They also block interference caused by ground loops.

TLDR: The Isolation Transformer is there so YOU DONT GET SHOCKED and SINCE NEUTRAL IS CONNECTED TO GND FROM THE SOURCE. IF ANYTHING CONNECTED to the SOURCE CIRCUIT ends up sending Voltage from neutral to gnd. Congrats! You just sent source voltage to gnd across every device connected to the Power Source circuit.

Your NANAO MS8 does this on the chassis as it is built in, thus isolating the monitor from the rest of the POWER SOURCE. A WG k7000 without an ISO Transformer does not. Thus you have a "HOT-CHASSIS"

I am done explaining this. You want to run a MONITOR that requires an ISOLATION TRANSFORMER and not use one. You have been warned. Learn the hard way for all I care. Just don't come crying when you get shocked, blow your chassis, or burn up your lovely $1000 CAVE PCB.

 

[RealMFnG]

I am done explaining this. You want to run a MONITOR that requires an ISOLATION TRANSFORMER and not use one. You have been warned. Learn the hard way for all I care. Just don't come crying when you get shocked, blow your chassis, or burn up your lovely $1000 CAVE PCB.

Everyone is confirming the K7000 requires an isolation transformer. Including nem.

 

[RealMFnG]

Concerning the monitor thread, the WG monitors was used generally for US cabs in wood and not in metal.
In this case, the frame is required.
The shell of the MC can play easilly the role of the frame monitor, he is in 2.5mm, he can be easilly fixed by the 4 screws directly in yoko and tate position.
Concerning the ground, he can be done directly on the shell cab and the PSU added with the one of the monitor.
The size of the bezel is perfect for a 19 inch.

Right. The shell can be the frame. As for grounding, you don't want to ground to the shell of the cab as it is metal.

The dispute of excluding the original K7000 the frame isn't really about grounding. It isn't about the ISO transformer requirement.

It is about convenience. Some folks want to rotate the monitor safely and easily. That's valid. But still requires solutioning to achieve since the original K7000 frame isn't likely to fit in the cab without widening the design. That is what is really about.

 

[nem]

You are basically running a HOT Chassis. The tube and frame will have 120v through it.

Yes, and that's why it's inside an enclosure (the cab) where little hands can't reach it.

With a Hot chassis, you have the potential to accidentally send 120v through your RGB-Sync cable and destroy your game pcb.

Sure, electricity will always find the shortest path to ground. If your DC ground is connected to Earth ground I can see how this could happen. Mine isn't, ever.

You are going to eventually blow out your chassis, stressing your rectifier and other power circuits on your chassis without isolation.

Without isolation? What? Who's arguing anything about isolation? If you're saying I'm putting stress on my monitors because they're ungrounded, well, I'll let you know when they blow. I've put thousands of hours on both cabs, both still going strong.

I'm not against grounding cabs, not in the least, both cabs are otherwise properly grounded. As are all my cabs. I've gotten shocked from ungrounded cabs, it sucks. The reason I've left both K7000s ungrounded is because grounding them creates interference on the screen. It's the same with monitors in Sega cabs. Yup, picture quality matters to me.

Again, monitors in Sega cabs are left ungrounded from the factory. Tens of thousands of cabs running for decades, no history of starting fires or killing people.

As for grounding, you don't want to ground to the shell of the cab as it is metal.

Yes, you do, the shell is exactly what you want to ground.

 

[RealMFnG]

Yes, you do, the shell is exactly what you want to ground.

You sure? We are talking about earth ground here, not DC ground. In the event of a surge, if the metal shell is the ground and the player is touching the metal shell which will be the case in the playing position, wouldn't the player be in for a shock?

Wouldn't it be advisable fasten a wood block to the metal shell, then allow that wood block to be the common earth ground point?

 

[hursit]

Thanks to @ReplicaX for his information.
We always use İSO transformer in Turkey too. It is necessarry. Normally CRT in here doesnt need that. But ı always use the İSO for the worst scnario.

Small update: ı have found a 19" CRT in here, and take the measurements from the seller. It looks like same as WGK7000 exactly. @Rg11 will ship the frame to me very soon.
I can test the frame with the tube on my draw, then into the first sample. I think it will be ok when i make the New smaller frame. Smaller means: only the Bended sides will be smaller. Left right up and down bended parts. The rest of the frame will be same as original exactly
I will ship it to someone who can test it with k7000 on original mini cute. I beleive rewrite and acblubden2 test it

 

[rewrite]

So we can safely assume that either:
A) @hursit will be shocked and never post again.

or

B) it's all going to work out.

 

[Rg111]

A k7000 requires a Isolation Transformer, its why every damn WG k7k manual has WARNINGS all over it REQUIRING IT.

Man, I've been saying this a few pages back. Everyone should read the manual. Its in English and easily found in Google (It's literally the first thing when you search "k7000 manual"). This chassis is well documented.

Thanks to @ReplicaX for his information.
We always use İSO transformer in Turkey too. It is necessarry. Normally CRT in here doesnt need that. But ı always use the İSO for the worst scnario.

Small update: ı have found a 19" CRT in here, and take the measurements from the seller. It looks like same as WGK7000 exactly. @Rg11 will ship the frame to me very soon.
I can test the frame with the tube on my draw, then into the first sample. I think it will be ok when i make the New smaller frame. Smaller means: only the Bended sides will be smaller. Left right up and down bended parts. The rest of the frame will be same as original exactly
I will ship it to someone who can test it with k7000 on original mini cute. I beleive rewrite and acblubden2 test it

Yes, we've taken measurements last night and we are confirming a few more today. I will be sending the frame along with my Egret 2 art to hursit for reprint.

 

[rewrite]

along with my Egret 2 art

I should probably get in on this one...

 

[Derick2k]

I will be sending the frame along with my Egret 2 art to hursit for reprint.

Were you able to peel them off the cab? I was trying on ended up tearing and stretching it, a total mess. Then I fucked up my shoulder and could not for the life of me end up setting up a jig to scan the sideart. Wish I had other arcade enthusiasts near me. Anywho, glad someone got it, and this can move forward.

 

[Rg111]

I will be sending the frame along with my Egret 2 art to hursit for reprint.

Were you able to peel them off the cab? I was trying on ended up tearing and stretching it, a total mess. Then I fucked up my shoulder and could not for the life of me end up setting up a jig to scan the sideart. Wish I had other arcade enthusiasts near me. Anywho, glad someone got it, and this can move forward.

Hursit has a design for the side art already, but he wanted to see the artwork to make sure he can replicate the silver properly.

Some of my art got fucked up too, but a lot of the good parts are still intact, and will make a good reference.

 

[Rg111]

Wish I had other arcade enthusiasts near me.

I know the feeling. I'm lucky to have @MinkeyB around.

Once this virus subsides, I was going to go visit my best friend in Brooklyn. We'll hook up for sure!