mathewbeall
Champion
- Thread starter Chelnov
- Start date
Awesome. Glad you like ‘em.
jimmyjames
Professional
I knew the measurements came up short on candy cabinets but I asked early today about measuring as I was intrigued. However I just came across this. Here is a link to someone that put one in a NNC.
https://fb.watch/mGJSxBH7w6/
https://fb.watch/mGJSxBH7w6/
plasticfactory
Grand Master
I'd throw my NNC in a volcano before doing that, but it really doesn't look too bad, especially if a proper bezel were made. The original display is already very flat.
mathewbeall
Champion
From an earlier post by @Zepherino
- Display lag measured from a Time Sleuth is approx 12ms across 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.
- Display lag measured from a Time Sleuth is approx 12ms across 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p.
I'd like to see that reduced in half or better.
That's something I plan to bring up with Unico. Once they get the bullshit scaler stuff on their boards sorted out, I have a feeling that number is gonna drop.
kazuo
Champion
12ms "sounds" high but it's still under 1F. I doubt anyone is going to notice in general.
That said, if you add latency from I/O converters, it could be more of a concern, so if they can drop it to like 5-6ms, that'd be ideal!
That said, if you add latency from I/O converters, it could be more of a concern, so if they can drop it to like 5-6ms, that'd be ideal!
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12ms is on par with most arcade LCDs in modern cabs, honestly it's the one aspect of this monitor that sounds reasonable. the poor color accuracy, lack of in-depth calibration and low resolution seem like much bigger issues.
ToddG posted this great article in retrorgb
https://www.retrorgb.com/the-unico-ulm-26-26-inch-lcd-debacle.html
https://www.retrorgb.com/the-unico-ulm-26-26-inch-lcd-debacle.html
Since I've seen some discussion here and there regarding input lag, here are some of my thoughts based on my understandings as a display nerd enthusiast. Others are welcome to chime in to correct gaps in my knowledge.
- Total Display Lag =/= Input Lag =/= Response Time. I see people mix these terms up in various ways all the time. They are different, and manufacturers usually only show Response Time, which is largely a meaningless marketing term like Dynamic Contrast Ratio. This is slowly changing with some companies, but there is no standard.
- The measurement I made from the Time Sleuth was from the CENTER of the panel. I should have been more clear about this, because images usually sweep from top to bottom with a digital display, with a difference of around 6-8ms from top to center and another 6-8ms from center to bottom. You can see this behavior from a high speed camera here at 4 min, 30sec:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJU2drrtCM&t=270s
(pay attention to the XBOX logo and you can see the image sweep top to bottom)
- I measure from center because: 1 - in most gameplay situations the center is most important for most up to date info, 2 - I can compare to rtings, who also tests with a photodiode from the center of the panel as described in their testing methodology. https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/inputs/input-lag
- Many have talked about how 12ms is not great for a gaming panel, but I think that misses some context. This panel refreshes at 60hz, meaning that the an image will take a full frame sweeping top to bottom (~16.67ms) to update its image. Because of this, you have a 8.33ms delay barrier in the center of the panel that you can't overcome, unless you raise the refresh rate. However, this usually doesn't matter to arcade or old console games since those games are typically 60fps or less, so raising the refresh rate would be meaningless. You can see how a assortment of expensive, high refresh, gaming focused monitors don't break that 8.33ms barrier in rtings test results at 60hz:
Image from: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/inputs/input-lag
So could the input lag or total display lag on the Unico monitor be improved? Maybe, but less than you might think. Also, keep in mind that the ~12ms stays consistent across many resolutions (including low resolutions) and whether or not the signal is progressive or interlaced, which is a good thing.
One thing I haven't personally verified is whether or not the Time Sleuth actually accounts for the display signal sweeping from top to bottom, but given that the readings are faster on the top of the panel and slower on the bottom, I always assumed that it just shows a raw result without accounting for anything.
I have some thoughts regarding resolution as well, but I think this is enough of a wall of text for now. Maybe I'll go into that later on when I'm bored with free time, or procrastinating.
EDIT: Apparently my thoughts on this kinda treads old ground. There was a post written in 2018 that I just read which comes to similar conclusions as my own, even citing the same video as a source. This is good, because different people reaching the same conclusion helps with trying to determine how reasonable that conclusion might be. https://www.resetera.com/threads/cr...on-misconception-about-display-latency.40628/
- Total Display Lag =/= Input Lag =/= Response Time. I see people mix these terms up in various ways all the time. They are different, and manufacturers usually only show Response Time, which is largely a meaningless marketing term like Dynamic Contrast Ratio. This is slowly changing with some companies, but there is no standard.
- The measurement I made from the Time Sleuth was from the CENTER of the panel. I should have been more clear about this, because images usually sweep from top to bottom with a digital display, with a difference of around 6-8ms from top to center and another 6-8ms from center to bottom. You can see this behavior from a high speed camera here at 4 min, 30sec:
(pay attention to the XBOX logo and you can see the image sweep top to bottom)
- I measure from center because: 1 - in most gameplay situations the center is most important for most up to date info, 2 - I can compare to rtings, who also tests with a photodiode from the center of the panel as described in their testing methodology. https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/inputs/input-lag
- Many have talked about how 12ms is not great for a gaming panel, but I think that misses some context. This panel refreshes at 60hz, meaning that the an image will take a full frame sweeping top to bottom (~16.67ms) to update its image. Because of this, you have a 8.33ms delay barrier in the center of the panel that you can't overcome, unless you raise the refresh rate. However, this usually doesn't matter to arcade or old console games since those games are typically 60fps or less, so raising the refresh rate would be meaningless. You can see how a assortment of expensive, high refresh, gaming focused monitors don't break that 8.33ms barrier in rtings test results at 60hz:
Image from: https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/inputs/input-lag
So could the input lag or total display lag on the Unico monitor be improved? Maybe, but less than you might think. Also, keep in mind that the ~12ms stays consistent across many resolutions (including low resolutions) and whether or not the signal is progressive or interlaced, which is a good thing.
One thing I haven't personally verified is whether or not the Time Sleuth actually accounts for the display signal sweeping from top to bottom, but given that the readings are faster on the top of the panel and slower on the bottom, I always assumed that it just shows a raw result without accounting for anything.
I have some thoughts regarding resolution as well, but I think this is enough of a wall of text for now. Maybe I'll go into that later on when I'm bored with free time, or procrastinating.
EDIT: Apparently my thoughts on this kinda treads old ground. There was a post written in 2018 that I just read which comes to similar conclusions as my own, even citing the same video as a source. This is good, because different people reaching the same conclusion helps with trying to determine how reasonable that conclusion might be. https://www.resetera.com/threads/cr...on-misconception-about-display-latency.40628/
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Some more thoughts, analysis, and corrections... Because my mind decided not to stop thinking about this during and after work. I decided to verify my claim of 8.33ms minimum delay from the center of the display by testing 2 of my CRTs. Pardon the potato quality due to me not having enough hands.
*Note: The claim of my HDMI to VGA adapter as lagless comes from https://www.black-dog.tech/time-sleuth-lag-tester.html. Both the Extron 203rxi and VGA2SCART should also add very minimal lag, if any.
BVM D20F1U connected to Time Sleuth, with total chain as follows: Time Sleuth > Lagless HDMI to VGA adapter > Extron VGA cable > Extron 203rxi > BNC cables > BVM 20F1U
Result: Top - 0.46ms, Center - 7.26ms tested in 480p, although other resolutions gave very similar results. I also tested HD-SDI > Blackmagic converter which again, gave similar results.
PVM 20M2U connected to Time Sleuth, with total chain as follows: Time Sleuth > Lagless HDMI to VGA adapter > Extron VGA cable > VGA2SCART > SCART to BNC cable > PVM 20M2U
Result: Top - 0.73ms, Center - 7.01ms tested in 480i, since its incapable of 31khz. Display is rotated because its my shmup display.
Just as a matter of record, I also retested the Unico 26" with the chain: Time Sleuth > Lagless HDMI to VGA adapter > VGA cable (I should've used better quality, but I got lazy) > LCD. IIRC connecting directly via HDMI was slightly faster, but at this point I procrastinated enough and didn't wanna get up and grab a HDMI cable to retest. I should though...
Result: Top - 6.31ms, Center - 12.71ms
Based on the results, I found was that I was... Half correct? While there was measurable delay of my CRTs on the center (and bottom) of the screen, both of them were actually slightly faster than the theoretical 8.33ms limit. I'm not sure if it's something to do with the Time Sleuth, or if a full 60hz frame is rendered slightly faster than I expected or some other factor. For this, I don't have the knowledge to explain. I guess I can sanity check myself by digging out my old Leo Bodnar tester, but I've gone through enough trouble as is.
From this exercise, I have noticed a critical mistake on my part, where I have simply stated the total display lag without giving direct comparison to CRT monitors. This misrepresents TFT to CRT comparisons by implying that CRTs are always 0ms, and the display lag of a TFT or anything else would be compared to this incorrect baseline. What I should (and will) do from now on when I present display lag measured from Time Sleuth instead is:
("Tested Display" in ms measured from center) - (CRT in ms from center) = Total Delay compared to a CRT in ms. CRT ms from center for me would be 7ms, the fastest result from my 20M2U.
So the estimated total delay of the Unico 26" would be (12.71ms - 7ms) = ~5.7ms compared to a CRT. Not the ~12ms as I originally reported. While I was intuitively familiar with this concept, I never gave it serious thought, nor did I consider that it would give people the wrong idea when I give these numbers out because they would have a incorrect point of reference from lack of information.
That's enough from me. Thanks for coming to my rather pedantic TED talk.
EDIT: I didn't consider the VBLANK period of the CRT, which is included in a refresh and explains why a frame is drawn slightly faster than ~16.67ms and why the center is faster than ~8.33ms. Thanks to Blio Seri for bringing this to my attention.
*Note: The claim of my HDMI to VGA adapter as lagless comes from https://www.black-dog.tech/time-sleuth-lag-tester.html. Both the Extron 203rxi and VGA2SCART should also add very minimal lag, if any.
BVM D20F1U connected to Time Sleuth, with total chain as follows: Time Sleuth > Lagless HDMI to VGA adapter > Extron VGA cable > Extron 203rxi > BNC cables > BVM 20F1U
Result: Top - 0.46ms, Center - 7.26ms tested in 480p, although other resolutions gave very similar results. I also tested HD-SDI > Blackmagic converter which again, gave similar results.
PVM 20M2U connected to Time Sleuth, with total chain as follows: Time Sleuth > Lagless HDMI to VGA adapter > Extron VGA cable > VGA2SCART > SCART to BNC cable > PVM 20M2U
Result: Top - 0.73ms, Center - 7.01ms tested in 480i, since its incapable of 31khz. Display is rotated because its my shmup display.
Just as a matter of record, I also retested the Unico 26" with the chain: Time Sleuth > Lagless HDMI to VGA adapter > VGA cable (I should've used better quality, but I got lazy) > LCD. IIRC connecting directly via HDMI was slightly faster, but at this point I procrastinated enough and didn't wanna get up and grab a HDMI cable to retest. I should though...
Result: Top - 6.31ms, Center - 12.71ms
Based on the results, I found was that I was... Half correct? While there was measurable delay of my CRTs on the center (and bottom) of the screen, both of them were actually slightly faster than the theoretical 8.33ms limit. I'm not sure if it's something to do with the Time Sleuth, or if a full 60hz frame is rendered slightly faster than I expected or some other factor. For this, I don't have the knowledge to explain. I guess I can sanity check myself by digging out my old Leo Bodnar tester, but I've gone through enough trouble as is.
From this exercise, I have noticed a critical mistake on my part, where I have simply stated the total display lag without giving direct comparison to CRT monitors. This misrepresents TFT to CRT comparisons by implying that CRTs are always 0ms, and the display lag of a TFT or anything else would be compared to this incorrect baseline. What I should (and will) do from now on when I present display lag measured from Time Sleuth instead is:
("Tested Display" in ms measured from center) - (CRT in ms from center) = Total Delay compared to a CRT in ms. CRT ms from center for me would be 7ms, the fastest result from my 20M2U.
So the estimated total delay of the Unico 26" would be (12.71ms - 7ms) = ~5.7ms compared to a CRT. Not the ~12ms as I originally reported. While I was intuitively familiar with this concept, I never gave it serious thought, nor did I consider that it would give people the wrong idea when I give these numbers out because they would have a incorrect point of reference from lack of information.
That's enough from me. Thanks for coming to my rather pedantic TED talk.
EDIT: I didn't consider the VBLANK period of the CRT, which is included in a refresh and explains why a frame is drawn slightly faster than ~16.67ms and why the center is faster than ~8.33ms. Thanks to Blio Seri for bringing this to my attention.
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Blio Seri
Enthusiast
@Zepherino if that helps you sleep at night, it takes less than ~16ms to draw a frame at 60Hz because of the vblank period (time for the beam to go back to the upper left corner of the screen).
I suppose the time sleuth starts counting on the rising edge of vsync.
I suppose the time sleuth starts counting on the rising edge of vsync.
This explains it perfectly, thank you! The faster recorded result was confusing me.
Zepherino, that was an great TED then!.
Thanks for all the Info. Have you seen Retro RGB dropping a hint about something like this from arcooda? that could be nice I stated the return process of three of the 6 monitors that I ordered. I'll let you know how the experience goes.
So, I emailed unico asking if these monitors will be available in Canada (importing 2 was going to cost over $1000 cad via a reseller on amazon). Unico said they are looking to sell internationally eventually.
I also reached out to Arcadoo asking if they were thinking of doing 29 inch, 4 x 3 for candy cabinets and I got a reply saying that prior to COVID they were in the planning stages. They might come back to it after the launch of their 20.1 and other screen.
Just a note - I would love to keep crts running but it is getting hard to find parts and people to fix them. I have nanao with vertical collapse and polo 25 with some power issues.
I also reached out to Arcadoo asking if they were thinking of doing 29 inch, 4 x 3 for candy cabinets and I got a reply saying that prior to COVID they were in the planning stages. They might come back to it after the launch of their 20.1 and other screen.
Just a note - I would love to keep crts running but it is getting hard to find parts and people to fix them. I have nanao with vertical collapse and polo 25 with some power issues.
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To be clear, you probably want a 27" LCD instead of 29" since LCD sizes are based on viewable screen area.
Japan measures CRTs based on the size of the tube (29") whereas the US measures from viewable screen area (27").
The Unico 26" is fairly close to the correct size, and is probably the closest fit so far besides jerry rigging something with the extremely expensive LG DualUp (which probably doesn't work well with real boards compared to the Unico or Arcooda LCDs for a variety of reasons).
Yup, I actually asked about a 25 inch, 27 inch and a 29 inch. The arcooda rep wrote 29 back in the email.
